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art and culture

How to Ask For Money

  • art and culture
  • groupthink

A mom at our church asked me recently if I would talk to her daughter. She is a graduating musician, heading out into the world, and is running into the same problem that many young musicians run into: she doesn’t know how to get paid.

I don’t mean getting work; she’s very talented, was placed in a great internship, and is already getting asked to do freelance work. I mean, once you have the gig, how do you go about handling the money side of things? So, here’s a smattering of poorly organized things I’ve learned over the years to help with the money side of things:

  1. Talk about money early, before you commit to an open date. This is true of everyone but my closest friends. I will never acknowledge that I have a date open until I know what they want from me, and what they are offering to pay. The conversation goes something like this: “Are you free on Thursday at 9PM?” Me, “I’m not sure what I have going on, my calendar isn’t in front of me right now. Why, what’s the gig?”
  2. Ways to say “How much are you going to pay me” without saying “How much are you going to pay me”. Do you have a budget in mind? Is this gig paying union scale? What does the financial side look like? and my personal favorite, How much are you going to pay me?
  3. If they ask you what your rate is for this kind of work, have a good answer ready. Do some research before you get the actual call, and know what people generally charge for weddings ($350, no rehearsal), club dates ($200 with one rehearsal, +$50 an hour for keyboard programming), arranging and orchestration (union scale), recording sessions ($750 for a 12-hour lockout day if they have money, $75 and a 12-pack of Corona if they don’t), remote song sessions ($250/song for up to 4 keyboard parts and one revision, $75/hour for additional revisions), and the like.
  4. If you need to come up with a rate, and you don’t know what the standard rates are for someone at your skill level, the formula goes something like this: $$ = (my hourly rate X estimated hours) + distasteful surcharge for bad music + travel expenses. If someone wants you to build a karaoke track for the song “Billy Jean”, figure out what you think your time is worth (say $30/hour if you’re just getting started), the approximate number of hours it will take (say 15), and you end up with $600. Note that there is no distasteful surcharge for Billy Jean, because that song is awesome.
  5. If I don’t know off the top of my head how much I charge for something, I prefer to wait (I’ll have to check my calendar, can I get back to you?) and then email them a rate later. That way, I have a little time to do the math.
  6. If you’re being paid after the fact, you need some way to track who has paid you yet, and who has not. I use a task-organizing site called www.RememberTheMilk.com. I enter all of my gigs, tag them as “unpaid”, and then remove them once I get the check. That way, I can tell at a glance if the gig I did back in January actually sent me my money. If you do a lot of church gigs, this is doubly important. Sorry. It’s just true. Even our church.
  7. Get setup with a paypal account that accepts credit cards. If someone wants to string out payments to you, or says “I’ll pay you once the album comes out,” you can tell them to pay you through paypal on their credit card. You’re their hired musician, not their project financier. Make them manage their own credit.
  8. Once you’ve started to get established, you can add a new tax called the “Would I Rather Be At Bodega Winebar” surcharge. Also known as the “How Much Is An Evening At Home With My Wife And Kids Worth” surcharge. This will price you out of some gigs. Make your peace with that.
  9. I never get too vexed if I price myself out of a gig. If someone can’t afford you, they mentally file you in a category called “People Higher Than Me on the Food Chain.” These same people will call you back in a year or so when they’re playing bigger clubs, or when they go to make their record.
  10. Finally, remember that you’re offering a valuable service. What you do has the ability to evoke and shape people’s emotional responses. You’ve spent a lot of time and money on training, and you do it skillfully. When you ask for money, you’re saying “I value this set of skills I’ve developed. Do you value them too?” If someone doesn’t understand that value, you don’t want to work for that person.

I know many of the people on this site swim these same waters, both in music and in other creative fields. Anybody have any words of wisdom to pass along on how to manage money, how to get paid, how to become fabulously wealthy while maintaining complete artistic integrity in your approach to Billy Jean Karaoke tracks?

Discussion

38 comments for “How to Ask For Money”

  1. Ladies and germs, as a nearly one year old fully free lancer, I can tell you that Mike is 100% dead on, as he usually is with any non-baseball related thoughts.

    The mass public believes that music appears out of the mist, like Brigadoon. It never ceased to amaze me that people would express surprise at the fact that I’d, back when I was a professional Christian, take 2-3 hours simply selecting the right songs for a worship set. Not arranging, not practicing… selecting. They didn’t understand that I considered even the selection process a craft.

    FYI, this sort of thing never stops, so just get used to it. I’ve been emailing back and forth with people at a major media corporation for weeks, trying to get paid for 10 week old sessions. The good news is that through this, I’ve become email buddies with the senior VP of Music Production for Features, trying to sort all this out (there were overlaps and miscommunications between their TV division - who contracted the sessions, and the features division - which is actually paying the bills.) She’s been very helpful, and (at least via email) has been sympathetic that I’ve been through such a rigamarole. She keeps on joking that she’s going to use my story as ammo against the TV people, which of course would be TERRIBLE for me. She’s joking. I hope. If she’s not joking, she better start hiring my ass for movies.

    The good news is that I finally got my paperwork two days ago, and it showed up via courier (how cool is that?!). The bad news is that I had to take my professional life in my hands speaking plainly and directly (and oh-so-politely) to some very powerful people. Musicians (or any creative professional, for that matter) must continually strike the balance between being money hungry divas and spineless doormats.

  2. Oh, and also…

    Mike and I still, STILL blow it on this issue.

    He knows of what I speak. :)

  3. Oh, and also… could some of you guys start posting more so I don’t spend a whole day looking at my name over and over and over in the comments section, feeling like a total tool.

    Thanks. :)

  4. I don’t freelance music, but I think these tips still apply:

    (11) Know how long it takes you to complete a particular kind of project. (This may seem obvious, but it’s way too easy to underbid if you’re shooting in the dark.)

    (12) Re: Contracts. Put in writing exactly what you will do and for how much money you will do it. If revisions are not included, say so (and set down how much you charge for them so the client has the option). Even if you’re working at a flat rate, cap the hours (and then stick to it).

    (13) Develop good instincts about client potential, and don’t be afraid to cut a deal to work with them again. I recently edited a book proposal for a guy who has never published a book before, but it was obvious three paragraphs in that he has a long and successful career in front of him. I gave him a basement bargain, did top-floor work, and told him so: When he lands the deal (and he will), he’ll want me to finish the book and he already knows my actual going rate.

    (14) This is kinda mercenary (and difficult for anyone with a perfectionist streak), but I think it’s important to strike a balance between excellence and practicality. Always do a higher caliber of work than the client expects or asks for, but don’t break your back for a project that doesn’t need or deserve it. Save your OCD emotional engagement for clients and projects that excite and will stretch you.

  5. 1. Don’t just trust people will pay you what you’re worth… this is an easy trap to fall into with the old Dr. $mooth gang, cuz they’re cool like that. But shockingly not everyone is.

    2. Follow up on your payments on a reasonable timeframe… the trick is to walk the fine line between persistent and annoying. I have some experience with this, especially larger companies where there may be 4 or 5 people between the person who hires you and the one who cuts the check. There was an incident last year where invoices were processed and shown as paid in the computer system, but were never printed. Luckily I wasn’t the only one dealing with it.

    I know those aren’t terrilbly music specific…

    After hiring a rhythm section for the past couple years with my band, here are some ways not to get called back…

    1. Bring only a bass drum, snare, and hihat to a gig 12 hours away and say you are challenging yourself to be a better drummer. I mean, that’s great and all, just don’t do it on my time. Instead challenge yourself to play the freaking song.

    2. Do not set up aforementioned tiny kit and shout “Done! I win!”and watch the rest of the band setting up PA.

    3. Do not argue with the singer on the way back about whether your computer or his gets plugged into the single power outlet in the van on the way home.

    4. Try to out-crass and out-gross the band. Especially us. Because, if you succeed, you are truly a horrible, horrible person.

    Just saying.

    Aly - that’s great advice, especially #14.

    I just saw the WWWD tagline… thanks for the smile.

  6. @Aly:

    Great stuff! I have a hard time with #12, because so much of what I do in music is quick turn-around, and each project is different enough that I don’t have a standard contract that will work.

    I’ve gotten in the habit of following up phone calls for work with a short email summarizing the terms we discussed, and asking for confirmation. Probably not legally binding, but at least then we both have something in writing that we can appeal to in good faith to resolve misunderstandings.

    #13 yes, yes, yes, yes!

    #14 is something I really need to pay more attention to. I tend to die on every hill, regardless of the project’s overall value.

  7. Mike - Email contracts work just as well as full-blown legalese (I usually do email deal point memos, too). At the bottom, include an electronic signature, which (you probably know this, but perhaps our tens of readers do not) is your name bracketed with vertical slashes, i.e. ||Aly Hawkins||. Then ask your client to reply with same. This makes it all official and whatnot.

    #14 is a toughie for me, too, but working for a publisher that puts out 75-80 titles per year has really helped me think critically about how much energy and investment individual projects warrant. I know I’m getting too involved when I start dreaming about improving a book I know will sell 16 copies.

  8. This is a really important subject and it’s great to see you all addressing it. All 14 points are well taken. When I used to sing for weddings (in the olden days of the ’70’s) the pay was handed to me in an envelope by the bride’s Mom or Dad. I never knew how much it would be until I got in my car. I remember getting $50 once. I was in hog heaven. At the other end of the spectrum, I got paid $8.00 for transposing a pop song and re-writing the whole thing by hand (the only way it could be done back then). Bonner recommended me for the job and It took me an entire weekend.

    “…how to become fabulously wealthy while maintaining complete artistic integrity…” I couldn’t help but think of Mozart and his enterprising father who had three-year-old Wolfie doing hand tricks at the keyboard for the amusement of the rich. Even the most talented musicians do what they gotta do.

    Michael, you need to write a book or at least a booklet on this subject. It could even be a group activity. You could also make it a part of basic music theory - “As the music changes keys, money changes hands” - or something like that.

    Aly, you make a good point that the approach you use in publishing is applicable to music as well.

    One final thing…I came of age during the transition from unpaid volunteer musician at most churches to full-time minister of music at many churches. I can remember many folks being agast at the thought of paying anyone to direct the choir (wasn’t that a volunteer ministry just like teaching a Sunday School class?) much less any instrumentalists.

  9. Wow. Interesting stuff.

    Response to #10. Jason (husband) and I raised our rates for private lessons for the first time in years. We resisted, because we like the idea of music lessons being accessible to all. But guess what happened when the new rates applied? People started practicing more, letting us know way in advance if they were to miss a lesson, or pay us later for a lesson they didn’t show up for. It is sad, but true, that if you are not the one in town charging the most your time is seen as less valuable. Now, as a result, we are expecting people to practice more and not waste our time.

    There is a highly talented sax teacher who teaches one night per week where we live. His policy is: if you haven’t practiced, please don’t bother showing up. He has a long waiting list.

  10. Buy a lot of gear. Can you say “tax writeoff”? (see post about Sweetwater catalogs)

    Get a gig that pays a lot of royalties. Those are the best.

    Sell out frequently. Call it “diverse experience”.

    Work your butt off on the cool gigs. Put those on your web site.

    Get a cool gig that pays a lot of royalties. Those are really the best.

  11. (15) I think it’s important to be able to give discounts, as long as you’re candid about what you normally charge. The worst thing that can happen is that people will think that they will get the Righteous Brother Deal forever after receiving it once.

    (16) I know that it’s cool to be aloof and artsy and laid back, yo. But the more serious the hiring party is about the gig, the more they’ll appreciate somebody who is as on top of the business end as much as the performance end. The actual playing part is just the delivery of the product. The other pieces of your world in chronological order are concept building (defining your sound or “product”), manufacturing (practice), marketing (hussling for gigs/ networking), delivery of product (performance), billing/ invoicing, collection, customer satisfaction (following up with a thank you email and/or mailing list of other places you’ll be playing- to show that you’re staying active in the marketplace).

    (17) Part of asking for money is setting the stage for your dollar amounts to be believable and agreeable. One of the first things Mike taught me was that it’s important that people file in you the right section of their mental rolodex. If, on first impression, you sell yourself as a bona-fide musician, in both practice and look then it’ll be easier to say, “this is what I make to do my thing”. If, on the other hand, you sell yourself as a Customer Service Specialist at Sears who also gigs on the side, then people might assume that you’re a weekend warrior. In California, most musicians I know have another strong source of income, but publicly, they’re just musicians. You don’t want to send the impression that they’re paying pro musician rates to a hobbyist. And whether you’re actually a hobbyist or a pro is really irrelevant. In this case, perception is reality.

    my 2 pesos…

  12. Aly… I’m one of the tens of readers who just learned how to electronically sign things. Thanks.

    Now, watch out world.

    ||Anthony Prince||

  13. I echo Stick’s advice about working your butt off on the cool gigs, but I’d add a little addendum to the idea that you better be careful about which gigs you phone in. Some that feel not so cool lead to cool things.

  14. Yes. There is no phoning it in allowed. There’s always a minimum standard of excellence. But for the cool gigs, go after the maximum standard of excellence. But of course, the limits imposed upon you can bring that standard down. Time, budget, the artist’s talent, etc. Do the best with what you’ve got to work with.

  15. Well, there’s excellence, and then there’s actsellence, where you’re the only who knows you’re phoning it in. :)

  16. It’s funny… ’cause I used that phrase, and now I’m gonna look like I’m backpedaling, and so be it, but I get myself in trouble because I’m incapable of phoning ANYthing in.

    Most of the time, I feel compelled to kill the tunes that SHOULD be phoned in.

  17. I think there’s a little bit of a musical messiah complex to those projects. I have that sense on really bad projects that I can single-handedly rescue this thing, if only my part in it is so dangerously hip that everything else will work to, by the power of my mighty muse.

    Except it just ends up looking like a pig wearing Chanel.

  18. @corey

    act cellence is my new favorite word.

  19. Verily I say unto thee, Michael…

    Word up.

  20. actcellence

    copyright 2008, Corey W. Witt
    ||Corey W. Witt||

  21. Not the music world, but…

    I have a problem with the one time gig: ie the wedding flowers I do.
    I am a business owner that works from her home, not from a store front. To some, this puts me in a different category, a hobbyist for hire that happens to do pro work. Yet, they like that they are not getting the catalog cut out, design and typical product when they hire me as they might a chain florist.

    I am getting better at quoting and estimating how much a wedding will actually cost me, and therefore how much I should charge. But where I lose hours and money is in the up front work, the paperwork, estimates, re- working the estimates, invoices, changed invoices, going back to the original estimate etc.

    Mike mentioned to me last night that I should start charging for my consultation, or at least making the deposit cover the consultation, estimate and date on the calendar, not the overall cost to the wedding. Or quoting the wedding and then charging by the hour. It’s a hard sell when I’m only one part of this day- usually the “oh yeah, flowers” part of the budget. Or the “what’s left over after spending $15K for the venue” part of the budget.

    I get referrals because once a bride has used my services and they are overjoyed with what I have delivered, they recommend me to others. However, that realization comes after the gig is over, after I’ve been paid. It’s hard to know how to bring that realization up front.

  22. Corey - That may actually be legal. Unless Mike owns everything published on this site, that greedy bastard.

    Gretchen - I think one of the most difficult things about being your own boss is counting all your overhead (including time spent doing things other than the thing you get paid to do) toward your going rate. It’s the hardest expense to justify to the customer, too. Mike’s right: Your time and expertise are worth a lot, even when they’re focused on something peripheral (yet integral) to making one-of-a-kind arrangements. Pass on your expense to those who are benefiting from it!

  23. Yeah, but it’s so hard to convince the client that the 2-hour full-body massage before every consultation meeting is an essential cost of the floral arrangement.

  24. Gretchen,
    I was talking to a guy who’s a partner at an ad agency and he said that they are able to charge more than other people simply because the ideas are better. The cool thing about these jobs we do, be they music, advertising, or sideman musician, is that once we build a strong portfolio, we can charge a premium if we can prove empirically that we are better than much of the competition.

    I also find strength in this quote that I picked up from photographer John Ruskin’s site…

    It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money, that’s all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.

  25. Hey! You’re right!

    I’m raising my rates.

  26. Yeah, June’s rates are increasing retroactively.

    Mike, cough it up.

  27. I was just gonna say: try pricing original art. For your friends.

  28. I do. :)

    So am I the ONLY one around here who doesn’t have a June Steckler original????

  29. Yes. And you need one if you want to be cool. And it’s gonna cost you.

  30. Corey, Corey, Corey….I have a biggish painting here in my living room that is driving me nuts. If you were closer, I’d shlep it over right now. It needs a home. People keep telling me they like it but no one buys it and the thing is leaning against my fireplace and driving me nuts. I need to find it a home. Sigh. Sometimes I feel like I’m running a shelter….for unwanted art.

  31. So, what does this neglected beauty look like? Email me some details. I can’t stand NOT being part of the in-crowd.

  32. We have no June Steckler originals, but we did get a knock-off at Venice last October from a dude who looked like a cross between Jesus and Santa.

  33. June, I love that when your entry gets written up in the Encyclopedia of Famous Art People, it will include a paragraph on Addison Road, and how it launched your career.

  34. Mike, and if I die soon, the value of all my pieces will sky-rocket!

    (Don’t call me morbid people, it’s the simple truth.)

  35. Hey Michael,
    Really good article! I know that many college graduates with a music degree would greatly benefit from your words of knowledge. It is a difficult place to be, starting out, loving what you do, but needing to be paid what you are worth. I like all your ideas, suggestions of amounts to charge, how to talk about it and screen it, etc. All good stuff. I agree with your one friend, you should consider publishing a booklet with information for graduating music degree students…how to get started, etc. Thanks for addressing the issue. I have passed it along to all new musicians I know…and Gretchen, I can feel your frustration. I am not sure that the consultation charge will be an acceptable option, but I do think that you could give a free (30 min) consultation and then, if it goes longer, add that on to the cost. Alternately, you could have a partner to handle all the paperwork and billing for you…that would free your time to do what you love. And, with an assistant, just add that person into your estimate as a separate cost…any way you do it, you’re the best and worth every cent and more. Keep that in mind when you are giving your estimates.
    Thanks again, Michael.

  36. Jan (and Melody), I think the folks commenting above just wrote the booklet you were suggesting. The great thing about the internet (and this particular corner of it best of all) is that this will keep growing, with new questions and new answers, and in 2 years or 5 years, I can keep linking students back here. Not only that, they can stumble onto it by themselves just by searching google, or they can email it to each other.

    Much better than just another boring booklet. Viva la Revelucion! Or Whatever!

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