I enjoyed two things about that video, the speech on how Adam was corrupt-able and Colbert’s speech at the end. Both classic but then again I play both sides of the spectrum.

I just have to say that you seem to bring out the worst in us. Please stay.

Therefore two or three equals four. So 1 +3 = 5. I have proven it, using scripture. I’ll bet that you are going to say, “that’s out of context” as your lame defense. Like putting Bible verses in context is relevant.

Also, I have never been to a “Math Class” so my mind is not corrupted by the system.

Corey, you are so dang funny. (”aaaaaaand scene.”)

Dan, out of all you’ve said, the phrase “Christian porn” might be what moves me, so to speak, the most. Eloquence is a friend worth having, friend.

Chad, I’d so love to see the phrase “predestined feminine rage” on an aisle marker, in place of “feminine hygiene.” Oh but, that begs some questions about Eve…….but probably not for Danny-boy.

Dan… as for you… Leonard just killed it, killed it, killed it. You’re prancing about like you know what’s what with the Bible, and philosophy, but you’re really regurgitating, nearly word for word, the work of one L. Ray Smith, and sorta losing at it.

God be with you.

Dan

P.S.
I’m also a musician and I teach music for a living. I wasn’t the drum major though. Darnet!!! I never was a church goer, so my mind wasn’t corrupted by it.

Dan… Um… Well… Gosh.

How old are you? Where you from? Im 32. I’m white, I grew up in Southern California just north of Los Angeles. I grew up in a non-denominational mega church, one of the first in the area (actually mentioned by name and Canonized in The Purpose Driven Church.) I was trained as a musician. I led worship professionally for 8 years before I decided, err, umm, was pre-destined to go free lance full time.

I attempted to take our dialog off the blog, and that may or may not continue. In one of your emails, you mentioned something like this, “The reason I came onto the web site was because I want to expose the false doctrine of hell. The title of the blog had hell, Lucifer and free will in it.”

Can I ask you something? Since you obviously have had a fair amount of trouble discerning what sort of blog this is, and what sort of people you’re dealing with, I have to ask… do you just Google those phrases and galavant around the internet looking for people to engage?

If so… can I again point out that the original intent of this particular post was to highlight an amusing clip from The Colbert Report? A clip which included the phrase, “I teach sunday school, motherf***er,” perhaps one of the greatest things ever uttered on television? While I’m certain that there are people present in the virtual room who believe in the doctrine of hell, how many Bible-thumping hell-a-holics have you encountered here?

I mean… you’re suggesting we go watch TBN, and that’s supposed to be some sort of rebuke or retort. I don’t get it. Are you feeling like this is a deeply TBN friendly sorta crowd?

Dude… this is a Colbert friendly sorta crowd. Remember when Paul was prompted by the Holy Spirit to write the phrase, “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.”

Remember that one? You’re failing, pal. You’re profoundly failing to read this room.

I use scripture poorly? Why don’t you watch TBN sometime.

Just one example:

The late Doctor Kennedy, from South Florida spoke of a scenario given him by another, regarding Africans who never heard of Christ. He refered to that as the ignorance defense. He then openned up a strawman argument about some snakebite victim in the in the Everglades, not being able to hold the hospital responsible for not saving him. Hope you see the problem with that absurd analogy. (This story, I read in one of Ray Smiths articles).

That’s only one example. And by the way, if God influences a decision, it’s as good as a cause. He may only be causing you to make a small change in your decision making. But this is difficult to understand by those who are indoctrinated into worldly thinking. As far as the non religious? I think that if they are given a thourough explanation, they will usually see that free will is ridiculous. I think most people see free will as being similiar to “free nation”. God does not opperate a deomocracy.

Corey, I don’t know what God has commissioned me to do. The only thing that I could do is explain to that person that everything happens for a reason. An experience of evil is necessary for all to learn righteousness. But if that person is content with being an atheist, I would probably do well to leave him/her alone. The scriptures say that one should be ready to give an answer for the hope that they have.

Seriously Dan, if someone makes a bad argument, uses scripture poorly, then says you cannot use my poor use of scripture to clarify anything, then declares himself the winner… Well I kind of feel like I just watched a 9 year old argue a point he is sure is correct and is if he gets to make up the rules, the definitions and the answers and he is the winner… no matte what you say I am right.

I know this sounds kind of harsh but to jump into a conversation for the purpose of only making a point that actually cannot be supported by much of anything… Well that is crazy talk.

I might be a poop head with giant nerdy tendencies. But then again, I really had no choice in the matter and as I finish writing these words I can only say… I am glad that it is finally over with. At least I still have my destiny.

Hypothetically, let’s say I have a brother who is a non believer. He lives a pretty dark life- one that lacks hope and joy. As one who is called by the Great Commission to go and make disciples of all nations, what would you say to this hypothetical brother of mine?

Always interesting to have an opposing outside opinion on the blog.

From now on, I insist that the word “father” always refers to Mr. H Lee of Camarillo, CA, and nobody else. Mr. Lee is my father, he is not your father. Since he is not your father, you have no father. I’ve proven that you have no father. YOU ARE ALL FOOLS FOR BELIEVING THAT YOU HAVE FATHERS!

Absurd, right? There’s no way to have a meaningful conversation unless we use the same words in the same way. Give me some explanation of why you think “free will” should refer to a situation where a choice is made absent any external influences at all, and then maybe we can chew on that for a while. Until then, just insisting that you’ve proven the point isn’t moving anything forward at all.

As I explained to Chad via e-mail, the reason I attack free will is because it goes hand in hand with the doctrine of hell. Otherwise, I couldn’t give a “running poopoo face” (you like that Mike? Ha?) about whether people think they have a free will. But if you believe that peoples’ moms, dads, grandfathers, grandmothers, little boys or little girls may some day be tortured in some ungodly literal fire for all eternity, just because they were unlucky enough to be born, then we have an issue to address. I await any comments on the subject.

If you’re going argue a point, but refuse to allow the intrusion of reason, and insist that everyone use a secret “basic understanding of scripture” that only you and 3 other people share, then there’s really nothing left to talk about. May as well degrade into Jr. High potty mouth humor.

poop-balls underwear face!

Even June thought it was funny. Are you upset at us (me) for ruining what was to be a scintillating debate?

Who da hell is Fred Phelps? Your boyfriend?

There’s just so much awesome. Due to the aforementioned spelling issues, I can’t tell if you mean “symbols,” like the lettering for the name of the school, or “cymbals,” like the kind that crash.

Maybe you mean symbols that crash together. That would be awesome… fundie letterettes just smashing their gear all over each other in a predestined feminine rage.

Is that what you meant?

The website you shilled for is awesome. It’s gonna go right on my must check monthly list right next to Fred Phelps’ site.

Unfortunately for you… Mike is the cool kid here in this little exchange. I’m afraid we can all see what color of (f)undies are being pulled up over your head.

So, listen. I’m not trying to insult you outright, but we can do that, too, if you like.

After reading your last diatribe, I think my 4 observations about your interaction here thus far at the roadhouse are pretty much spot the fuck on. I’m gonna let ‘em ride as-is.

:)

So chad, your grasping at straws by being fore-ordained to insult me. I am programmed not to be concerned if you think I’m intelligent. Because, the fact is, anybody who through no choice of their own has magically become filled with basic scriptural and scientific understanding (there obviously aint too many) would see that I have blown the whole concept of free will right out of the mud of modern day Babylon. Now personally, I have no capacity to choose a preference between outcomes if the two of you began to understand the complete absurdity of free will or not. But there is a much greater and evil doctrine that might be exposed if it is so ordained. Again, I am incapable of recommended any course of action, because your choice of actions has already been determined, that the tu (that’s for u chad) of you visit bible-truths.com. It costs nothing because the word of God is unable to produce any change in the lives of those who read it, since every action in their lives is the product of brute cause and effect.

Is that pretty much about right?

I noticed chad (that’s right, no more upper case for u, buddy), gave numerous examples of scriptural proof that people must make choices. Well, Duuuuhhhh!!! The whole point of what I’ve typed above, is proving that choices aren’t created by some magical free will, where cause and effect is null and void. It matters not if one is merelly inspired, or literally caused to do something. The result is the same. That person’s will is going to change to accomodate the circumstances. So, if your daughter, Michael, cannot lift a box by herself, she will still be able to influence some movement from it. She would still cause it to move.

So chad, your grasping at straws by trying to insult me. I couldn’t give a false doctrine hell if you think I’m intelligent. Because, the fact is, is that anybody with basic scriptural and scientific understanding (there obviously aint too many) would see that I have blown the whole concept of free will right out of the mud of modern day Babylon. Now personally, I would love it if the two of you began to understand the complete absurdity of free will. But there is a much greater and evil doctrine that must be exposed. Again, I highly recommend that the tu (that’s for u chad) of you visit bible-truths.com. It costs nothing because the word of God is free.

I dunno. It’s sorta hard to take the phrase…

“Michael, you obviously did’nt read what I wrote very thouroughly.”

…when it’s clear that he’s being derisive.

That is, if you have any freedom to choose your own behavior in the matter, which you don’t.

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

From James

You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

From Phillipians 1

21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

I have 4 thoughts for you:

1. There are as many references about choice in Scripture as there are about predestination or absence of free will. Quote fairly, not just the ones that support your point of view.

2. For someone with such a caustic and didactic tone, you might invest in a spell checker, and perhaps consider your grammar.

3. Michael is, as you are beginning to understand, one of the smartest people I’ve ever known. That doesn’t mean he’s right all the time, but he is thoughtful. You’re swimming with a very big shark. Good luck.

4. You’re proving correct the stereotype that hardcore reformers lack a basic sense of humor. Let’s keep in mind that this whole thread started with me posting a clip from The Colbert Report.

I don’t think that’s the best use of the word free, however. It’s not a definition that many people would understand, especially as it pertains to freedom of will.

In my use of the word, I’m distinguishing between sufficient and contributing causes. A contributing cause is one that adds to the action that follows, but is not in itself able to cause the action to happen. A sufficient cause is one that, in itself, is able to cause the action to happen, and in its absence, the action would not occur. If my daughter and I both work together to lift a very heavy box, one she cannot lift on her own, her strength is a contributing cause, mine is a sufficient cause.

That allows us to talk about free will as I think it is generally understood: free will locates sufficient cause for a person’s actions in their own minds, in their will. It holds that there is a feature of the human mind that is capable of superseding the external influences or contributing causes, and is itself sufficient to produce an action. Courage, self-sacrifice, endurance, hope, and faith are all virtuous outcomes of that ability to direct the will in ways that are contrary to external influences.

When I am hungry, my hunger is a contributing cause to my decision to eat. But, it alone is not sufficient to produce the action. An act of will on my part is needed, and that act of will is capable of resisting, and overcoming, the desire to eat. No matter how many millions, if not billions, of causes might contribute to my desire to eat, the one cause that is sufficient to produce the act of eating is my will to do so.

I think most people would understand that as “free”.

What people hate to hear is that computers can make thousands of choices in a minute. The choices are programed by intelligent beings. If the computer malfunctions, it might make bad choices, but they were still caused by a malfunction. Then, free will people scream that we are not computers. No we’re not!! We have complex emotions, a conscience, and the ability to experience physicall pain or pleasure and anything in between. For a person to love another person, or to love God, that person must be inspired to do so. If God chooses not to reveal Himself to somebody in this life, then that person cannot make any choice regarding acceptance of God. This is as logical as it gets and what’s so marvalous, is that the scriptures speak of the sovereinty of God, making Him the first and continuous cause of anything. You might want to reread the scriptures that proove my point in my other post. Also, check bible-truths.com.

By the way, a sin is missing the mark. It is a mistake. Not that you could have avoided it due to the millions if not billions of causes.

There are, of course, contributing causes to every action - if I eat, my hunger is a contributing cause (or, possibly, my deep deep depression and lack of self-worth. oh, how I hate myself - nom nom nom). But my hunger is not sufficient cause, meaning, it is not in itself enough to bring about the effect (my eating). There is an act of will on my part that is required. This is demonstrated by the fact that I can set my will in opposition to the desire to eat, and the action does not occur. Will, or intent, is the sufficient cause to bring about the action.

If my daughter’s honesty is worthy of praise, it is her choice that is praiseworthy. If she were a robot programmed to always tell the truth, her truth-telling would be morally meaningless. It is because she has the freedom to do otherwise that her action becomes praiseworthy.

When my daughter tells the truth, is that a praiseworthy act?