Heaven, Hell, Lucifer, Free Will, and Colbert

Last Monday night, there was a fascinating little TV moment that I actually missed. My sister told me about it yesterday, and I found it on the intertubes and was moved to shrieks and giggles.Watch the video first, and then read on, I don’t want to spoil it for you with my little commentary.

It’s about a five minute clip, and the payoff is right at the end, with perhaps the most insta-tastic-ready-made Addison Road tagline of all time. You’ll know it when you hear it, I promise.

So, if you’re not hip to Colbert, then you’re not hip. For the unhip, Stephen Colbert has created a cult figure of steadily growing proportions. He is lampooning Bill O’Reilly and other pundits who take themselves uber seriously, which is what makes this clip so interesting to me.

See… when he begins, he’s doing his standard thing: taking conservatism to an often hilarious extreme.Most of his guests know what’s happening, and still manage to get off an interesting interview. They play the game because they understand the character.Heck, even Huckabee’s been on. In fact, Colbert, Stewart, and Conan O’Brien have been staging a mock fight for weeks over who is responsible for Huckabee’s unlikely success thus far, such as it is.

So… here’s Colbert doing his regular (albeit hilarious) schtick, and he’s got this guy who’s deconstructing one of the fundamental doctrines of scripture, and who takes himself quite seriously. Watch as Colbert slowly moves from playing along to getting more and more genuinely frustrated. I think that little 30-second speech he makes at the end is the real Stephen, who was raised Roman Catholic.

To me, the greatest thing about this is watching the guest (a professor at Stanford, none the less) get flustered as he encounters a court jester who’s intellect matches and (likely) surpasses his own. He thought he was gonna get a free ride to plug his book.

Poor bastard. As President George Bush can tell you… Colbert is a force to be reckoned with.

77 thoughts on “Heaven, Hell, Lucifer, Free Will, and Colbert

  1. Chris

    That was friggin’ hilarious.

    And I agree that that was the real Colbert at the end.

    I seriously had to watch that again to believe that that’s what he said.


  2. Chad Post author

    Sorry. :( Mother Trucker. That’s what he said. He was calling that nice professor’s mother a trucker. She drives trucks.

  3. sharolyn

    I knew ahead of time that Colbert is a Sunday School teacher, so was totally wondering where that was going! Wow. That was great.

    For me, Colbert is the example that someone can “learn funny”, because when he first came on The Daily Show years ago, I would FF his clips. A couple of times he subbed for Jon Stewart and it was downright painful. Now I find him hilarious. Great stuff!

    I bet if Chad could, he would put that quote on a banner, in Papyrus font, and hang it in front of a church.

  4. Chad Post author

    Last night I said that any church that will play that clip on a Sunday morning gets my membership with no further questions.

  5. Chad Post author

    Hmmm… the video link has disappeared from YouTube. I’ll try and find another link that I can embed, but in the meantime, here’s the un-embed-able version from Comedy Central.

    click here

  6. michael lee

    For the love of God, Chad. Seriously. Will you people learn how to embed a freekin link? It’s not that hard.

    Quit being Retarded Technology Learners!

  7. Chad Post author

    Michael, those are there to provide you with a constant reminder of the ultimately uncontrollable nature of the world.

    You’re welcome.

  8. Chad Post author

    JC, they pulled the YouTube link. If you go up about 5-6 comments here, you can follow an alternate link.

  9. Dan

    Hell is an evil Christian hoax. The word Lucifer does not belong in the bible and Satan was never some perfect cherub who fell from “heaven”. Free will is an unscriptural and unscientific hoax, so there couldn’t have been some perfect cherub named Lucifer who free willed himself to be the devil.

  10. michael lee

    Dan, what an interesting perspective. You’ve convinced me to change my mind. Which is ironic since, according to you, I have no mind to change. In which case, why come here and post anything at all?

    Seriously, if there is no free will, what benefit could their possibly be to presenting an opposing opinion, offering evidence and a reasoned argument? If human thought is nothing more than electrical and chemical transactions, and therefore consigned to act in accordance with natural laws, then why bother trying to change anyone’s thoughts on a matter?

    The word “scientific” has no meaning absent free will. Science is a body of accepted knowledge, and a systematic project of theorizing forward on that knowledge, or theorizing against that knowledge. What can it possibly mean to accept or reject ideas as being properly scientific if we are not free to accept or reject anything? What can it mean to theorize if we are not free to use reason in constructing theory?

    To say that free-will is “unscientific” might be the most convoluted self-refuting statement ever. Science is the exploration of new knowledge. A train running on fixed tracks does no exploration.

    I hope I have convinced you to change the chemical and electrical impulses of the deterministic sack of meat in your head. But, of course, that would require that you be free to do so.

  11. Dan

    Michael, free will violates the very laws of cause and effect. Every action has innumerable causes. Just the fact that you and I exist is the result of probably billions of other things happening exactly as they had to. Suppose for instance, at the time of your conception, your dad decided to use a condomn. Or your mom’s dad or any of thousands of your ancestors. Sorry, but you did not ask to be born. And when you were, you didn’t ask to grow up where you grew up or to meet any of the people you’ve known in your life.

    Let’s take a simple action: You decide to scratch your nose. I ask, why did you scratch your nose? You say, I chose to.

    That’s right, you made a choice. But was it a free choice that you made because you, Michael, have a free will? I would bet that you scratched your nose because it itched!! You may then say, but I could have let it itch and not scratched it. But what was your will, and what caused it? Your will in this hypothetical itch, was to scratch it. And if your will was to leave it itching, then your will “was caused” by your stubborness of proving that you, Michael, have some psychologically impossible free will. Then again, what caused you to be so stubborn anyway?

    You don’t have a free will!!

    I constantly hear about those who “reject” Christ and His sacrifice. . . . as if they could have possibly chosen differently, with all of the various elements that cause people to think the way they do. And the people who “choose” to commit evil attrocities in their lives? People like Hitler, Stalin, Sadam, Bin Laden, George W, ect. could not have chosen their actions any differently because every one of their actions had inumerable causes. But yes, they did choose them, through the scientific process of cause and effect. Not through some fabled free will. It matters not, how many possible choices they were given. By the way, what does the word of God have to say about the causes of man’s weakness, involving seriously bad choices?

    Jer 10:23
    . . . . . I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

    Jer. 13:23
    Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil?

    Rom. 3:11
    Not one is seeking out God

    Rom. 2:4
    “the goodness of God leads you to repentance”

    John 15:16
    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.

    John 6:44
    No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing (dragging) him.

    Eph. 1:4
    He (God) chooses us in Him (Christ)

    Rom. 11:7
    What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused.

    Rom 11:8
    God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day.

    Phil. 2:13
    For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

    Rom. 12:4
    God parts to each the measure of faith.

    James 1:17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Rom. 9:19-24
    You will be protesting to me, then, Why, then, is He still blaming? For who has withstood His intention? (everyone has withstood His will, but nobody has withstood His intention) . . . . Why do you make me thus? Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? . . . . . . the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, . . . (Concordant Literal Translation)

    Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps. (We have plans, not God. He already knows.)

    Ecc 1:15
    If something is crooked, it can’t be made straight: if something isn’t there, it can’t be counted.

    Ecc 6:10
    Whatever exists has already been named, and what man is has been known; no man can contend with one who is stronger than he.

    Isa 55:11
    So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Pr. 20:24 Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?

    Job 14:16
    For now thou numberest my steps dost thou not watch over my sin?

    Job 32:8
    But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

    “Then began He to upbraid the cities wherein most of the mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto you, Chorazin! Who unto you, Bethsaide! For if the mighty works (not some free will), which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

    1 Cor. 2:14
    But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    More on free will:
    For a god to give man the “gift” of free will to choose some fabled hell, he would have to be infinitelly more evil than a parent giving their one year old child the freedom to choose to run out into traffic. We are way inferior to God, more so than a one year old child is to a grown up.

    So Michael, how bout you free will yourself into laboring, to find reasons why every scripture above is out of context. Then tell me whether God really created man in such a weak state, so that He can torture every free-willed weakling for all eternity in some fabled hell. I would hopre that you don’t believe such garbage.

  12. michael lee

    Ah. I thought you were swinging from the other side on this one. The “scientific” comment threw me off.

    Dan, based on your understanding of free will (or the lack thereof), can you give me a definition of what sin might be?

  13. Dan

    Yes Michael, it is a praiseworthy act. She voluntarilly told the truth, and it should be commended. There are causes to her thinking in the frame of mind that would lead to this, though. When kids lie, there are also causes, most of which the parent probably does not know of. Sometimes people do things wrong (not talking about your daughter) just because an authority figure wants them to do right. Not even the greatest psychologists can figure out the answers for most of those reasons. But God knows all, and essentially, causes all.

  14. michael lee

    In the absence of free will, what does the word “voluntarily” mean? Did she choose her own actions? If so, then how is that not free will?

    There are, of course, contributing causes to every action – if I eat, my hunger is a contributing cause (or, possibly, my deep deep depression and lack of self-worth. oh, how I hate myself – nom nom nom). But my hunger is not sufficient cause, meaning, it is not in itself enough to bring about the effect (my eating). There is an act of will on my part that is required. This is demonstrated by the fact that I can set my will in opposition to the desire to eat, and the action does not occur. Will, or intent, is the sufficient cause to bring about the action.

    If my daughter’s honesty is worthy of praise, it is her choice that is praiseworthy. If she were a robot programmed to always tell the truth, her truth-telling would be morally meaningless. It is because she has the freedom to do otherwise that her action becomes praiseworthy.

  15. Dan

    Michael, you obviously did’nt read what I wrote very thouroughly. A persons will to do something is caused by several causes. When you are hungry, I would think that it is your will to eat. If you are a compulsive eater, it will often be your will to eat, even if you aren’t really hungry. You can choose to eat or you may choose to go hungry. Or, in the other case, you may choose to seek help with your problem. It’s your choice. It is not a free choice though. For a choice to be free it would have to be free of cause. This is impossible. This is so basic but yet, so important in understanding ourselves, God’s influence, and what the scriptures actually say.

    What people hate to hear is that computers can make thousands of choices in a minute. The choices are programed by intelligent beings. If the computer malfunctions, it might make bad choices, but they were still caused by a malfunction. Then, free will people scream that we are not computers. No we’re not!! We have complex emotions, a conscience, and the ability to experience physicall pain or pleasure and anything in between. For a person to love another person, or to love God, that person must be inspired to do so. If God chooses not to reveal Himself to somebody in this life, then that person cannot make any choice regarding acceptance of God. This is as logical as it gets and what’s so marvalous, is that the scriptures speak of the sovereinty of God, making Him the first and continuous cause of anything. You might want to reread the scriptures that proove my point in my other post. Also, check bible-truths.com.

    By the way, a sin is missing the mark. It is a mistake. Not that you could have avoided it due to the millions if not billions of causes.

  16. michael lee

    Dan, I did try to read what you wrote carefully. I think we are using different meanings of the word “free”. Your use of the word, as you define it above, means being in a state where a choice is made absent any external influencing factors. If that’s your definition, I’ll agree that such a condition never exists. Every decision is made in the presence of influencing factors.

    I don’t think that’s the best use of the word free, however. It’s not a definition that many people would understand, especially as it pertains to freedom of will.

    In my use of the word, I’m distinguishing between sufficient and contributing causes. A contributing cause is one that adds to the action that follows, but is not in itself able to cause the action to happen. A sufficient cause is one that, in itself, is able to cause the action to happen, and in its absence, the action would not occur. If my daughter and I both work together to lift a very heavy box, one she cannot lift on her own, her strength is a contributing cause, mine is a sufficient cause.

    That allows us to talk about free will as I think it is generally understood: free will locates sufficient cause for a person’s actions in their own minds, in their will. It holds that there is a feature of the human mind that is capable of superseding the external influences or contributing causes, and is itself sufficient to produce an action. Courage, self-sacrifice, endurance, hope, and faith are all virtuous outcomes of that ability to direct the will in ways that are contrary to external influences.

    When I am hungry, my hunger is a contributing cause to my decision to eat. But, it alone is not sufficient to produce the action. An act of will on my part is needed, and that act of will is capable of resisting, and overcoming, the desire to eat. No matter how many millions, if not billions, of causes might contribute to my desire to eat, the one cause that is sufficient to produce the act of eating is my will to do so.

    I think most people would understand that as “free”.

  17. Chad Post author

    From Joshua 24

    15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

    From James

    You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

    From Phillipians 1

    21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

    I have 4 thoughts for you:

    1. There are as many references about choice in Scripture as there are about predestination or absence of free will. Quote fairly, not just the ones that support your point of view.

    2. For someone with such a caustic and didactic tone, you might invest in a spell checker, and perhaps consider your grammar.

    3. Michael is, as you are beginning to understand, one of the smartest people I’ve ever known. That doesn’t mean he’s right all the time, but he is thoughtful. You’re swimming with a very big shark. Good luck.

    4. You’re proving correct the stereotype that hardcore reformers lack a basic sense of humor. Let’s keep in mind that this whole thread started with me posting a clip from The Colbert Report.

  18. michael lee

    Oh man, Chad, I would like to strongly suggest that we not start judging the value of comments by the spelling and grammar. I know I would fail that test.

    That is, if you have any freedom to choose your own behavior in the matter, which you don’t.

  19. Chad Post author

    I guess…

    I dunno. It’s sorta hard to take the phrase…

    “Michael, you obviously did’nt read what I wrote very thouroughly.”

    …when it’s clear that he’s being derisive.

  20. Dan

    I won’t attack Michael for any of his earlier gramatical errors because he’s not being an ass clown like Chad. However, I do recognize Michael’s worldly intelligence in his writing. That said, some very smart people are absolutely sure that there is no God. They are absolutely blind. Then, you have every minister who attended a theological semetary (where they bury the truth) believing that we all posses an illogical free will, (along with several other major false doctrines, including the evil Christian hell). By the way, free will is the ability to make uncaused choices. It is the only correct way of defining free will. Can either of you two tell me how a person brought up in a non Christian culture can rationally be expected to accept Christ as their personal savior? Do you two realize that most people living in the last 2000 years have never heard of Christ? I guess that puts the “free will” doctrine of choosing Christ into a choke hold. But, perhaps you Michael, and u, chad, would dissagree.

    I noticed chad (that’s right, no more upper case for u, buddy), gave numerous examples of scriptural proof that people must make choices. Well, Duuuuhhhh!!! The whole point of what I’ve typed above, is proving that choices aren’t created by some magical free will, where cause and effect is null and void. It matters not if one is merelly inspired, or literally caused to do something. The result is the same. That person’s will is going to change to accomodate the circumstances. So, if your daughter, Michael, cannot lift a box by herself, she will still be able to influence some movement from it. She would still cause it to move.

    So chad, your grasping at straws by trying to insult me. I couldn’t give a false doctrine hell if you think I’m intelligent. Because, the fact is, is that anybody with basic scriptural and scientific understanding (there obviously aint too many) would see that I have blown the whole concept of free will right out of the mud of modern day Babylon. Now personally, I would love it if the two of you began to understand the complete absurdity of free will. But there is a much greater and evil doctrine that must be exposed. Again, I highly recommend that the tu (that’s for u chad) of you visit bible-truths.com. It costs nothing because the word of God is free.

  21. corey

    Here’s the thing, Dan. I’m pretty sure I disagree with you. But you belong here at Addison Road. Anyone who calls anyone around here an “ass clown” as part of their stance is a-ok in my book.

  22. michael lee

    Let me go ahead and correct that last paragraph for you:

    So chad, your grasping at straws by being fore-ordained to insult me. I am programmed not to be concerned if you think I’m intelligent. Because, the fact is, anybody who through no choice of their own has magically become filled with basic scriptural and scientific understanding (there obviously aint too many) would see that I have blown the whole concept of free will right out of the mud of modern day Babylon. Now personally, I have no capacity to choose a preference between outcomes if the two of you began to understand the complete absurdity of free will or not. But there is a much greater and evil doctrine that might be exposed if it is so ordained. Again, I am incapable of recommended any course of action, because your choice of actions has already been determined, that the tu (that’s for u chad) of you visit bible-truths.com. It costs nothing because the word of God is unable to produce any change in the lives of those who read it, since every action in their lives is the product of brute cause and effect.

    Is that pretty much about right?

  23. Chad Post author

    Hey there Danno,

    So, listen. I’m not trying to insult you outright, but we can do that, too, if you like.

    After reading your last diatribe, I think my 4 observations about your interaction here thus far at the roadhouse are pretty much spot the fuck on. I’m gonna let ‘em ride as-is.


  24. Dan

    Well, Michael. Now you’re answering me like that dork who can’t hold the cymbols correctly in the high school marching band. You know, the one who has his underware pulled up over his head by the cool kids? You misunderstood me with your third sentence. We always have choices. The rest is pretty spot on, though.

  25. Chad Post author

    Dan, your predetermined mind is frightening, indeed. I have video of Michael doing his drum majoring!

    Unfortunately for you… Mike is the cool kid here in this little exchange. I’m afraid we can all see what color of (f)undies are being pulled up over your head.

  26. Chad Post author

    Oh, also…

    The website you shilled for is awesome. It’s gonna go right on my must check monthly list right next to Fred Phelps’ site.

  27. Chad Post author

    Sorry -

    There’s just so much awesome. Due to the aforementioned spelling issues, I can’t tell if you mean “symbols,” like the lettering for the name of the school, or “cymbals,” like the kind that crash.

    Maybe you mean symbols that crash together. That would be awesome… fundie letterettes just smashing their gear all over each other in a predestined feminine rage.

    Is that what you meant?

  28. Dan

    Wow, drum major!! You must be impressed. Did you ever ask to lick his anus? Chad, are you still 15 years old or does it just sound like it?

    Who da hell is Fred Phelps? Your boyfriend?

  29. Chad

    Dude… c’mon.

    Even June thought it was funny. Are you upset at us (me) for ruining what was to be a scintillating debate?

  30. michael lee

    I don’t think anyone’s upset, apart from maybe Dan.

    If you’re going argue a point, but refuse to allow the intrusion of reason, and insist that everyone use a secret “basic understanding of scripture” that only you and 3 other people share, then there’s really nothing left to talk about. May as well degrade into Jr. High potty mouth humor.

    poop-balls underwear face!

  31. Dan

    How could I possibly be upset? I’ve proven that freewill is a hoax. I realize that this is hard by the masses to see because they have been told over and over that the ability to make choices is the same as having a free will. Nonsense!! Oh, I’m sorry if you think that my style when exposing absurd doctrines is too agressive. But sometimes this is necessarry. As far as my imature language, I was only dishing it out because I purceived that it was being thrown at me. And Michael, that reply you gave me earlier was really nerdy. Get over it. I’ve said my peace involving the false doctrine of free will. If you guys don’t see it yet, then God doesn’t want you to see it, yet.

    As I explained to Chad via e-mail, the reason I attack free will is because it goes hand in hand with the doctrine of hell. Otherwise, I couldn’t give a “running poopoo face” (you like that Mike? Ha?) about whether people think they have a free will. But if you believe that peoples’ moms, dads, grandfathers, grandmothers, little boys or little girls may some day be tortured in some ungodly literal fire for all eternity, just because they were unlucky enough to be born, then we have an issue to address. I await any comments on the subject.

  32. michael lee

    Dan, you’ve invented a definition for the term free will, one that isn’t used by theologians, philosophers, English majors, or the average person on the street. On the basis of that invented definition, you loudly proclaim that we are blind fools for believing that it exists.

    From now on, I insist that the word “father” always refers to Mr. H Lee of Camarillo, CA, and nobody else. Mr. Lee is my father, he is not your father. Since he is not your father, you have no father. I’ve proven that you have no father. YOU ARE ALL FOOLS FOR BELIEVING THAT YOU HAVE FATHERS!

    Absurd, right? There’s no way to have a meaningful conversation unless we use the same words in the same way. Give me some explanation of why you think “free will” should refer to a situation where a choice is made absent any external influences at all, and then maybe we can chew on that for a while. Until then, just insisting that you’ve proven the point isn’t moving anything forward at all.

  33. Stick

    Why bother trying to convert us to your doctrine? Aren’t you saying it’s already all set in stone? If we aren’t going to end up buying your load in the end anyway, why waste your time preaching to us?

    Always interesting to have an opposing outside opinion on the blog.

  34. corey

    I have a question for you, Dan.

    Hypothetically, let’s say I have a brother who is a non believer. He lives a pretty dark life- one that lacks hope and joy. As one who is called by the Great Commission to go and make disciples of all nations, what would you say to this hypothetical brother of mine?

  35. Leonard

    Dang it, I get busy for a few days and you guys go have a verbal slug fest. i too am one who misspells my words. So Dan, I empathize with your not being preprogrammed to see the red line under a word and change it. Or to see it and to be preprogrammed to ignore it. Or to see it… Well you know.

    Seriously Dan, if someone makes a bad argument, uses scripture poorly, then says you cannot use my poor use of scripture to clarify anything, then declares himself the winner… Well I kind of feel like I just watched a 9 year old argue a point he is sure is correct and is if he gets to make up the rules, the definitions and the answers and he is the winner… no matte what you say I am right.

    I know this sounds kind of harsh but to jump into a conversation for the purpose of only making a point that actually cannot be supported by much of anything… Well that is crazy talk.

    I might be a poop head with giant nerdy tendencies. But then again, I really had no choice in the matter and as I finish writing these words I can only say… I am glad that it is finally over with. At least I still have my destiny.

  36. Dan

    Michael, theologians insist that people either choose Christ or choose hell. I guarantee that atheists choose neither. Moslems choose Allah. Theologians absolutely believe that people must make the right decisions even without any inspiration or influence.

    Just one example:

    The late Doctor Kennedy, from South Florida spoke of a scenario given him by another, regarding Africans who never heard of Christ. He refered to that as the ignorance defense. He then openned up a strawman argument about some snakebite victim in the in the Everglades, not being able to hold the hospital responsible for not saving him. Hope you see the problem with that absurd analogy. (This story, I read in one of Ray Smiths articles).

    That’s only one example. And by the way, if God influences a decision, it’s as good as a cause. He may only be causing you to make a small change in your decision making. But this is difficult to understand by those who are indoctrinated into worldly thinking. As far as the non religious? I think that if they are given a thourough explanation, they will usually see that free will is ridiculous. I think most people see free will as being similiar to “free nation”. God does not opperate a deomocracy.

    Corey, I don’t know what God has commissioned me to do. The only thing that I could do is explain to that person that everything happens for a reason. An experience of evil is necessary for all to learn righteousness. But if that person is content with being an atheist, I would probably do well to leave him/her alone. The scriptures say that one should be ready to give an answer for the hope that they have.

  37. Dan

    Yes Leonard, you most definately do have your destiny. The Kingdom of God is the ultimate and final destiny of all. However, there might be some heavy judgement along the way. By the way, blogs generally do not show those little red underlines, so I can understand your misspellings.

    I use scripture poorly? Why don’t you watch TBN sometime.

  38. Chad Post author

    I’d just like to point out that I’m not on a spelling and grammar toot, I just found it amusing, given the circumstances.

    Dan… Um… Well… Gosh.

    How old are you? Where you from? Im 32. I’m white, I grew up in Southern California just north of Los Angeles. I grew up in a non-denominational mega church, one of the first in the area (actually mentioned by name and Canonized in The Purpose Driven Church.) I was trained as a musician. I led worship professionally for 8 years before I decided, err, umm, was pre-destined to go free lance full time.

    I attempted to take our dialog off the blog, and that may or may not continue. In one of your emails, you mentioned something like this, “The reason I came onto the web site was because I want to expose the false doctrine of hell. The title of the blog had hell, Lucifer and free will in it.”

    Can I ask you something? Since you obviously have had a fair amount of trouble discerning what sort of blog this is, and what sort of people you’re dealing with, I have to ask… do you just Google those phrases and galavant around the internet looking for people to engage?

    If so… can I again point out that the original intent of this particular post was to highlight an amusing clip from The Colbert Report? A clip which included the phrase, “I teach sunday school, motherf***er,” perhaps one of the greatest things ever uttered on television? While I’m certain that there are people present in the virtual room who believe in the doctrine of hell, how many Bible-thumping hell-a-holics have you encountered here?

    I mean… you’re suggesting we go watch TBN, and that’s supposed to be some sort of rebuke or retort. I don’t get it. Are you feeling like this is a deeply TBN friendly sorta crowd?

    Dude… this is a Colbert friendly sorta crowd. Remember when Paul was prompted by the Holy Spirit to write the phrase, “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.”

    Remember that one? You’re failing, pal. You’re profoundly failing to read this room.

  39. Dan

    No, I haven’t noticed any hell mongers on this blog. Yes, I do try to expose Christian porn in my spare time. I never watched the video. I just left my signiture (kind a like the Zorro Z) and noticed that someone answered me. At this point, I will not belabor my point on free will. Believe what you like. Since nobody here believes in that hell crap, ye are OK in my book. Don’t know what you think happens to the lost, though. Remember, God is perfect.

    God be with you.


    I’m also a musician and I teach music for a living. I wasn’t the drum major though. Darnet!!! I never was a church goer, so my mind wasn’t corrupted by it.

  40. Leonard

    No offense Dan, to belabor a point it is helpful to make one. To come in and be an expert of God, church, the bible, free will but to never have made a commitment to the church is kind of like saying I am an expert of Baseball but I have never played and don’t really like the game. Sort of hard to take your input when I have given my life to serve Christ in the church. When God said the church was his chosen method of revealing his mysteries to the world and when Jesus himself says he sacrifices for the church. Your reasoning is how Angels Fans were created. (had to take my shot)

  41. Chad Post author

    Chad hearts Leonard.

    Dan… as for you… Leonard just killed it, killed it, killed it. You’re prancing about like you know what’s what with the Bible, and philosophy, but you’re really regurgitating, nearly word for word, the work of one L. Ray Smith, and sorta losing at it.

  42. june

    June hearts Leonard too.

    Corey, you are so dang funny. (“aaaaaaand scene.”)

    Dan, out of all you’ve said, the phrase “Christian porn” might be what moves me, so to speak, the most. Eloquence is a friend worth having, friend.

    Chad, I’d so love to see the phrase “predestined feminine rage” on an aisle marker, in place of “feminine hygiene.” Oh but, that begs some questions about Eve…….but probably not for Danny-boy.

  43. Sharolyn's Husband

    Mathew 18:20 “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

    Therefore two or three equals four. So 1 +3 = 5. I have proven it, using scripture. I’ll bet that you are going to say, “that’s out of context” as your lame defense. Like putting Bible verses in context is relevant.

    Also, I have never been to a “Math Class” so my mind is not corrupted by the system.

  44. Chad Post author

    Dan –

    I just have to say that you seem to bring out the worst in us. Please stay.

  45. Christopher

    The only sad part about Colbert’s end speech is that he forgets that God is the creator of time itself. He plans all, does all, sees all, creates all…..God knew and planned for Lucifer to rise up against him in order to create something that only God and Lucifer know or could even dream about.

    I enjoyed two things about that video, the speech on how Adam was corrupt-able and Colbert’s speech at the end. Both classic but then again I play both sides of the spectrum.

  46. Daniel Semsen

    This really is the best thread ever…holy crap!

    I left my comment on this thing a year or so ago and never came back. OH, HOT DIGGITY DOG, DID I MISS OUT! Not that I would have had anything to add…but wow…this is a good read.

    You have to keep this in the “3 From the Archives” spot FOR.EV.ER!!

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