1. I personally do not think that Hostel is doing so much damage to people that it needs to be yanked from theaters. One or all theaters. Just my opinion.

2. “is that sacrifice not worth it for the sake of the lives who will be the better for not seeing it?”

The answer is no. It is not worth it. I do not believe I should have to sacrifice my freedom to watch films that I want to watch to protect people that don’t want to see it. I think that the people that don’t want to see it should choose not to see it. If you accidentally fall into a movie theatre where it is being shown, walk out. If other people are highly affected by it, and they in turn, affect you…Well, then I am truly sorry for that. But to me, that is life. People that are violent will still be violent if they don’t see movies like Hostel. I think banning a movie in one theatre wouldn’t do any good because, what makes you think they just won’t go to another theatre and watch it?

Also, I have to say that I think there is little pragmatism in an argument that asks people to sacrifice a right to see a movie because you’re afraid someone will be highly effected by it, and then in the end effect you.

I also wouldn’t sacrifice my right to see it simply because if someone else saw it they would be a better person. That question in my opinion is just oozing with theoretical fluffernutter, (for lack of a better term). I am not responsible for violent crime because I choose to watch Hostel. I don’t think that by refusing to sacrifice my right to view it hurts anybody else. Villainize me, if you will. I just don’t have the same opinion about the movie. I am of the opinion that restricting more things in this country is not the answer. I’ll go back to my example of Amsterdam. One of the lowest crime rates in Europe. Very little restrictions on such matters whatsoever.

I also think that the media should stop censoring the violent real life drama that is occurring right now, because it could possibly (in my dreams), wake some Americans up to how horrific things are right now in this war. Those images would most likely HIGHLY effect people in a way that might stir them out of their coma and remind them that life is filled with ugly things that they can do something about if they stop sheltering themselves from icky images and surrounding themselves with pink unicorns.

Ok, that’s my last rant on this topic. It looks to me like it’s “agree to disagree” time, for this gal. Just for the record though, I am in no way comparing or contrasting the war with Hostel. It was just something that came to mind as an area where I wish our country wasn’t so sheltered. It makes it easier for people to turn a blind eye.

Remember when you and Dad saw “Jaws” for the first time, and then turned around and went again and again and again with anyone that you could find? I think that was the point. It was about the JOY, dude!

I didn’t suggest that Paul said anything of the sort. If you re-read my entire post you’ll see that I was addressing Carrie (and agreeing with her).

“It isn’t censorship for a movie theatre to decide not to play a movie.”

I was stating that I had the same right to choose not to rent from Blockbuster just as people have the choice not to go see Hostel. This right is important to me. I think it’s quite obvious what is deemed legally as censorship to all of us. The debate doesn’t really lie there, and I think you’ll agree. That said, my point of view (which is obviously not shared here) is that if you don’t like something, don’t watch it. Plain and simple. If it doesn’t fit in with your belief system or it offends you, then don’t support it by viewing it. I think that in terms of entertainment, people should be able to express themselves however they please without market pressure from people that don’t like violence/religous films/sex/pony play, etc. I realize, and also appreciate everyone’s right to do so, but I just believe that there are soo many other things that are actually effecting people these days that protesting someone else’s Art is futile and close minded. Art is art. Some of it is offensive and violent and everyone disagrees on what is inappropriate, and everyone also disagrees on what is Art. So leave the so called offensive Art alone, stop making irrational judgments about the people who enjoy the films that you don’t support and get angry about global warming, or whatever you are passionate about. Hope that clears up what my opinion on the matter is for you. Now I actually do need therapy! :)

[quote]I would love to see a major theater chain demonstrate some integrity and refuse to show this stuff. (They won’t show sexual porn, so why do they show torture porn?) Better yet, I would love to see this film utterly tank at the box office.[/quote]

He’s advocating (and I would agree with him) the application of economic pressure to limit the release of these kinds of movies. If diversity and freedom are part of our common heritage, then certainly the application of market pressure to affect behavior is just as much a part of it.

No, it’s censorship to legally enforce the opinions that the movie shouldn’t be made. Anything short of that is just economics.

Note: Just for the record, Zack. I seem to remember you initially reporting that you enjoyed Hostel. I understand that your opinion changes drastically about cinema with some reflection. But just wanted to point out that maybe we should make our way to counseling - immediately! Paul - Any openings? :)

When they stop shaking and crying I’ll let you know what they thought of it.

“Hostel 2″ did quite poorly at the box office, and there were four blistering letters to the editor from readers tweaked over torture porn in this Sunday’s LA Times Calendar section. There is some sanity in the world!

I grew up pretty sheltered, too, and, like Cerise, still am a bit of a weenie about scary movies. Scary movies still can generate nightmares for me, so I stay away - far, far away.

Paul - you so have this subject nailed. “Torture porn”. That’s an arrow right in the bull’s eye. I’ll just stand aside, now, and shout out, “Rant on!”

(editor’s note: Tyler seems to have a very limited vocabulary, so I took the liberty of replacing several of his word choices with pink unicorns.)

Save your money. Netflix the original instead.

*KNOCKING ON PARENTS’ HEADS* HELLLLOOOO? ANYONE HOME?!

Do they even READ about the films they’re about to take the kids to? You’ve got to be shitting me, Pyle!

I have to think about whether I’ve just become an old fuddy-duddy on the topic, since MY parents brought home “Aliens” for our viewing pleasure when Chad and I were 11 and 9, respectively. “Aliens” IS very R-rated; it has f-words a-plenty (but some of the best uses of the word, especially when delivered by Bill Paxton), exploding space critters, and a couple of scenes where blood is a major factor. But my parents warned us about this stuff in advance. “If we hear you SAY any of those words, you’re toast,” they began. They FFed those overly-gory scenes. The rest is just pure intensity, but they knew we could handle it. They brought home a calming film to watch afterwards. I never once had a nightmare involving this film; it remains on my top five list to this day… Not to mention that it’s the best-written sci-fi film ever, hands down.

But compare this to “Saw,” “Hostel,” and the like. You quickly find–there’s no comparison. It’s like trying to contrast the smoldering LOOK between Daniel Day-Lewis and Madeline Stowe in “The Last of the Mohicans” to any “bow-chicka-WOW-WOW” scene in “Vixen Stewardesses Unchained.” One is meant to appeal to the higher thought centers in your brain; the other is aimed towards your nether regions.

There will always BE films like “Hostel” and “Vixen Stewardesses.” But no mainstream theatre in its right mind would put up a graphic poster for the latter smack in the middle of their lobby. No one would stand for it. Just because the First Amendment protects it doesn’t mean I wanna LOOK at it.

I’m with my Dad — I want some chain to just stand up and say, “Y’know what, guys? We’re not gonna play this film.” Or at least, “We’re not gonna put up that poster.” It ain’t censorship. It’s humanity.

Come on, Paul. You know how much market research goes into the green-lighting of a script/production. Major studios do not make films they hope people will see. They make films they KNOW people will see. They study trends, and create films that will sell X amount of tickets. To say the people who are profiting from these films are sucking the life out of our culture is incorrect, in my humble opinion. The public that demands these films - they’re the ones sucking the life out of our (their own) culture. In this case, the demand clearly creates the supply.[/quote]

Ok dude… sorry to harp on you on not one, but two consecutive threads, but let’s apply your logic to the actual world created in the movie Hostel, shall we?

So, in the movie, there’s this group that arranges the logistics for the torture and the murder, right? Then they have clients who pay them for their services, right? If you are totally integrous with ye olde logic here, the real criminals would only be the clients, as the group themselves are only responding to the demand of the public.

That’s the natural, honest conclusion to your argument, man.

I, personally, choose to stand apart from the thing, check the end result, and declare the whole proposition unbelievably worthless, resulting only in pain and suffering for innocent bystanders, and the lining of the pockets of corrupt and calloused individuals.

“No matter what?” Really Zack?! I don’t get that. At all. No matter what the result of such things is in individuals and society at large? I think what you’re saying is that you’re indescribably grateful to live in a place where freedom reigns supreme. I can understand why you say this, but it doesn’t play out. Taken to it’s logical end, it’s a faulty measuring stick for a civilization…at least a civilization that wants to stay civilized. (And now there’s a whole bunch of folks who are saying “Well now, it depends on how you define ‘civilization,’ isn’t it?!”) My handy-dandy online dictionary defines “civilized” as “to bring a place or people to a stage of social, cultural and moral development considered to be more advanced.” For funsies, let’s take that down a notch, lose all the problematic debatability and just say that a civilized society is one where people may treat each other like crap all the time but don’t actually physically torture each other routinely and and/or gather ’round to watch people being tortured anytime there’s nuthin’ good on cable. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that the hostel type movies are uncivilized. It’s been proven over and over and over that people (especially young men) who are exposed to violent imagery and the chemical reactions such imagery triggers in their brains are affected by it and never in a good for society or themselves kind of way.

That Americans have the freedom to make and view absolutely anything they want is proof of our superior civilization of freedom in theory only. The playing out of it has proven that people do not solely thrive or advance with unfettered freedom but are also drawn not to just their most base self but to a self that is perverted, depraved…animal like. (Anyone ever observed how cows will meander over and watch each other be picked off at a slaughter house? After the carnage ends, they slowly wander off, dumbly chewing their popcorn…er, I mean, their cud.)

The problem is not with our laws, it’s with the insides of our people. As always.

I think the thing that pisses me off about the folks behind these films is that they cry foul with such… ahem… violence whenever someone like Paul (my dad) exercises his first amendment rights.

“Censor!” They cry. “Morality Police!” They cry. “Big Brother!” they cry.

“F*** that,” I say.

You guys like to pretend that you’re making some sort of commentary on society, some sort of reflection of our times. “We don’t create violence in the world,” they say, “We’re just depicting what actually happens.”

You know what? Schindler’s List was one of the most violent, sadistic films in the history of cinema. The shot would be set, a character would be on screen, a gun would come out, and they would be shot through the head. The camera didn’t cut away like most films do. In fact, I remember the camera lingering on the lifeless body in one scene, while the victim’s blood spilled into the snow.

We gang up on your shit movies because you employ all of your skills and all of the skills of hundreds of your fellow craftspeople, because you so effectively and purposefully create operatic depictions of death and dismemberment for little Jimmy and his dumbass older brother who rents the unrated DVD from Blockbuster, and then you do you interviews and talk about them like you’ve made some art house documentary that depicts and confronts the evil, violent society in which we live.

We gang up on you because you lack integrity. You want to be a smut merchant and be respectable, and you can’t have it both ways.

I haven’t seen the first Hostel, and I won’t see the sequel.

I’d be interested in hearing from someone who’s seen it.

I saw the first Hostel movie on DVD. (The Netflix queue was dangerously low) It was crap. I won’t see the 2nd one, for various reasons. (The first one blew dog balls, movie theaters are awful places, etc)

But no matter what, I am so thankful that Eli Roth lives in a place where he can make whatever film he wants. I’m also quite pleased that the public can choose whether or not to see it.

“Those who make and profit from these films are sucking the life out of our culture.”

Come on, Paul. You know how much market research goes into the green-lighting of a script/production. Major studios do not make films they hope people will see. They make films they KNOW people will see. They study trends, and create films that will sell X amount of tickets. To say the people who are profiting from these films are sucking the life out of our culture is incorrect, in my humble opinion. The public that demands these films - they’re the ones sucking the life out of our (their own) culture. In this case, the demand clearly creates the supply.

Great post. Our theory in our kids is Preserve innocence and when it matures it becomes prudence. My definition of prudence is what happens when wisdom and purity collide.

I have never understood the appeal of slasher flicks, and that includes the comparatively-tame Jason and Freddie delicacies of the recent past. I know some people like being scared out of their skins just for fun, but give me a nice game of checkers any day. I’d like my adrenal glands to function when I actually need them.

Who was it that coined the expression “Just because we can doesn’t mean we should”? Dear god, was that St. Paul? (oh, holy cats. I think I just quoted St. Paul [fans self])

Anyway - even though I’m pretty rabidly for free speech, that’s kind of my maxim about what I’ll watch. Just because we can make this material doesn’t make it good, or worthy, or right. And (said the childless woman) I do think parents should take absolute and detailed control over what their kids watch. Even to the point of Tivo-ing the Super Bowl if anyone but Barry Manilow’s doing the halftime show. [smile]

This post has definitely made me rethink wanting to see “Hostel: Part II.” I think I’ll be going to go see “Ocean’s 13″ instead. I mean, who doesn’t want to see Matt Damon in slicked back hair? I sure do.

I remember watching episodes of “Emergency!” and “Quincy M.E.” when I was a little kid. They were re-runs, because I was born in the late ’70s. But do you remember what would happen when Quincy would pull back the sheet to reveal the grizzly remains of a murder victim to his coworkers? You would only see Quincy’s and the other law enforcement officers’ faces, and their reactions. You wouldn’t see the body. And there were some horrible things that had happened to these people- like burning, mass murder, etc. You had to use your imagination to see what Quincy was seeing.

Fast-forward to 2006. CSI (pick a town) provides a camera view of inside the neck where the bullet penetrates and ruptures the artery. Nothing is held back. We see everything. Or on ER or Grey’s anatomy. We see patients opened up all the time.

Maybe it’s a lack of creativity on the part of movie-makers and movie-goers. There’s no mystery anymore. Are we really that dumb and unimaginative now?

Derailing… now.
This is a bit off-topic, but I guess it loosely relates. A relative of mine said that that was the greatest argument for saving sex for marriage. He said that when he was with his new wife, it was hard to remove all the memories (comparisons?) of what he’d done before.
Re-railing…