Comments on: The Words of Institution http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/ your source for illegal theology downloads Sun, 12 Oct 2008 01:34:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: june http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-75055 june Mon, 16 Apr 2007 02:40:10 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-75055 [quote post="1351"]People who are at home in an Evangelical style of worship should be given the instruction and means to understand the power and significance of liturgy,[/quote] ...Indeed. I think this is where the baby was thrown out with the bath water...I'm convinced that the key to meaningful liturgy making a lasting and meaningful resurgence in evangelical churches is for pastors, Sunday School teachers and most importantly, parents to make a point of explaining the reasons/meaning behind liturgy/rituals/reenactments to the up and coming generation. I tend to think that people not doing this is why, in part, such things became meaningless and stale and then abandoned by some. Most kids are simply not going to 'get it' unless It is explained to them. Repeatedly. [quote post="1351"]People who are at home in an Evangelical style of worship should be given the instruction and means to understand the power and significance of liturgy,[/quote]

…Indeed. I think this is where the baby was thrown out with the bath water…I’m convinced that the key to meaningful liturgy making a lasting and meaningful resurgence in evangelical churches is for pastors, Sunday School teachers and most importantly, parents to make a point of explaining the reasons/meaning behind liturgy/rituals/reenactments to the up and coming generation. I tend to think that people not doing this is why, in part, such things became meaningless and stale and then abandoned by some. Most kids are simply not going to ‘get it’ unless It is explained to them. Repeatedly.

]]> By: michael lee http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74712 michael lee Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:17:58 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74712 [quote comment="74603"]It is interesting how a person such as I can just ache for more ritual (or whatever you want to call it) as the casual, evangelical free, everybody grab a geetar and let's love on Jesus style sometimes seems almost profane or at least not nearly meaningful enough given what Christianity has been/is/will be while the person right next to me can be thinking "Oh thank God...at THIS church they are actually REAL and we're not just all faking it with a bunch of meaningless rituals!" I'm just saying.[/quote] That's very true. I'm a big fan of variety in the church, I think we need a wide range of spiritual expressions, for exactly this reason. I think it's also important, though, that the church give people the tools to participate in worship experiences that are outside of their own comfort zone. People who are at home in an Evangelical style of worship should be given the instruction and means to understand the power and significance of liturgy, and likewise those in ritualized traditions should be taught to understand the value of freedom in worship. If for no other reason, then because it's a good basis for charitable understanding of our brothers and sisters, and how they pursue life with God. [quote comment="74603"]It is interesting how a person such as I can just ache for more ritual (or whatever you want to call it) as the casual, evangelical free, everybody grab a geetar and let’s love on Jesus style sometimes seems almost profane or at least not nearly meaningful enough given what Christianity has been/is/will be while the person right next to me can be thinking “Oh thank God…at THIS church they are actually REAL and we’re not just all faking it with a bunch of meaningless rituals!”

I’m just saying.[/quote]

That’s very true. I’m a big fan of variety in the church, I think we need a wide range of spiritual expressions, for exactly this reason.

I think it’s also important, though, that the church give people the tools to participate in worship experiences that are outside of their own comfort zone. People who are at home in an Evangelical style of worship should be given the instruction and means to understand the power and significance of liturgy, and likewise those in ritualized traditions should be taught to understand the value of freedom in worship.

If for no other reason, then because it’s a good basis for charitable understanding of our brothers and sisters, and how they pursue life with God.

]]> By: june http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74603 june Sat, 14 Apr 2007 06:07:45 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74603 Michael, I appreciate your insight and ability to communicate so well. I've thought long about this very thing as I grew up in a church tradition similar to what you described growing up in and at times I intensely long for more church liturgy/structure/meaning/less flip-flops. I have several friends who are in their 50's and 60's who did indeed grow up with liturgy and structure and an annual calendar of 'do this on this day at church for this historical/biblical reason' who would never, ever, ever go back to any of it because what they experience in the "low church" setting is, basically, what you described thinking and experiencing through watching the Pope's funeral: everything had a purpose. I've heard said friends talk about the freeing experience of not being held to an ancient calendar and liturgy and how it opened the way for them to think and feel and relate to God in a personal way and how then they were able to figure out if they actually believed in God at all and what that meant. I know what I'm saying is obvious and has been better said, but nonetheless, I'm sayig it. (Every class needs it's C average student!) It is interesting how a person such as I can just ache for more ritual (or whatever you want to call it) as the casual, evangelical free, everybody grab a geetar and let's love on Jesus style sometimes seems almost profane or at least not nearly meaningful enough given what Christianity has been/is/will be while the person right next to me can be thinking "Oh thank God...at THIS church they are actually REAL and we're not just all faking it with a bunch of meaningless rituals!" I'm just saying. Michael, I appreciate your insight and ability to communicate so well. I’ve thought long about this very thing as I grew up in a church tradition similar to what you described growing up in and at times I intensely long for more church liturgy/structure/meaning/less flip-flops. I have several friends who are in their 50’s and 60’s who did indeed grow up with liturgy and structure and an annual calendar of ‘do this on this day at church for this historical/biblical reason’ who would never, ever, ever go back to any of it because what they experience in the “low church” setting is, basically, what you described thinking and experiencing through watching the Pope’s funeral: everything had a purpose. I’ve heard said friends talk about the freeing experience of not being held to an ancient calendar and liturgy and how it opened the way for them to think and feel and relate to God in a personal way and how then they were able to figure out if they actually believed in God at all and what that meant. I know what I’m saying is obvious and has been better said, but nonetheless, I’m sayig it. (Every class needs it’s C average student!) It is interesting how a person such as I can just ache for more ritual (or whatever you want to call it) as the casual, evangelical free, everybody grab a geetar and let’s love on Jesus style sometimes seems almost profane or at least not nearly meaningful enough given what Christianity has been/is/will be while the person right next to me can be thinking “Oh thank God…at THIS church they are actually REAL and we’re not just all faking it with a bunch of meaningless rituals!”

I’m just saying.

]]> By: michael lee http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74329 michael lee Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:59:18 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74329 I wonder if the value of ritual as a teaching tool is coming back into use more widely - I've heard people say we're moving to a post-literate culture, and in those waters we might find that reenactment is a powerful tool for communicating and teaching. I wonder if the value of ritual as a teaching tool is coming back into use more widely - I’ve heard people say we’re moving to a post-literate culture, and in those waters we might find that reenactment is a powerful tool for communicating and teaching.

]]> By: Morphea http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74169 Morphea Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:06:03 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74169 Cliff, I experienced the best, if shortest, moments during the Eucharist when I attended an Episcopalian church. Those moments were the smiles I shared with the people serving the host and wine - especially the wine people, since there's a measure of trust and humor and cooperation that goes along with both of you levering the big cup towards your mouth whilst NOT spilling it down your front. The moment when I looked into their eyes and smiled was a split second where it was just me, them, and, you know, god. I do miss that. Cerise Cliff, I experienced the best, if shortest, moments during the Eucharist when I attended an Episcopalian church. Those moments were the smiles I shared with the people serving the host and wine - especially the wine people, since there’s a measure of trust and humor and cooperation that goes along with both of you levering the big cup towards your mouth whilst NOT spilling it down your front.

The moment when I looked into their eyes and smiled was a split second where it was just me, them, and, you know, god. I do miss that.

Cerise

]]> By: D. P. http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74162 D. P. Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:03:57 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74162 Very nice reflection. Ritual really does matter, doesn't it? Especially if you know what you're doing :-) Very nice reflection. Ritual really does matter, doesn’t it? Especially if you know what you’re doing :-)

]]> By: Josh Frank http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74152 Josh Frank Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:27:18 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74152 Wonderfully told. We need more storytelling like this in the Church. One of the strongest senses of calling over the last 10 years of my life has been, over and over, as I participate in the celebration of the Eucharist. From the time I was a teenager, it's always been a pull towards ordination for me. What a blessing that you have been able to serve. Perhaps someday I'll have a similar humbling experience. Wonderfully told. We need more storytelling like this in the Church.

One of the strongest senses of calling over the last 10 years of my life has been, over and over, as I participate in the celebration of the Eucharist. From the time I was a teenager, it’s always been a pull towards ordination for me. What a blessing that you have been able to serve. Perhaps someday I’ll have a similar humbling experience.

]]> By: Gloria http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74140 Gloria Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:56:35 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74140 Richard Foster teaches about these 'streams' and how the church has several. I think when streams lap over you get some interesting outcomes. Great storytelling, powerful message. Richard Foster teaches about these ’streams’ and how the church has several. I think when streams lap over you get some interesting outcomes. Great storytelling, powerful message.

]]> By: Kyle http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74122 Kyle Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:42:11 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74122 This is beautiful, Michael. Thanks for sharing it. This is beautiful, Michael. Thanks for sharing it.

]]> By: Cliff http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74026 Cliff Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:28:15 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-74026 Well said, Michael. As a lay person in the Anglican tradition, I cannot serve the Eucharist, but I have served the wine many times, and often found a similar sense of wonder. Right now, I serve at most services at my little church. Every week, I offer the Blood of Christ to my friends and my pastor. It is such sweet service - often the best part of Sunday for me. I am freed from my own worries and grievances as I offer Christ to my friends. Jesus, in my hands, enters my heart through their trusting, kind eyes and I am blessed even as I offer a blessing to them. Well said, Michael. As a lay person in the Anglican tradition, I cannot serve the Eucharist, but I have served the wine many times, and often found a similar sense of wonder.

Right now, I serve at most services at my little church. Every week, I offer the Blood of Christ to my friends and my pastor. It is such sweet service - often the best part of Sunday for me. I am freed from my own worries and grievances as I offer Christ to my friends. Jesus, in my hands, enters my heart through their trusting, kind eyes and I am blessed even as I offer a blessing to them.

]]> By: Morphea http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-73940 Morphea Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:41:41 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-73940 Wow, Michael. It's been a while since I've truly been able to say "I never thought of it that way before". Your humility gave me pause. Cerise Wow, Michael. It’s been a while since I’ve truly been able to say “I never thought of it that way before”. Your humility gave me pause.

Cerise

]]> By: Karen http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-73915 Karen Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:12:21 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-73915 What a beautiful reminder Michael! It brought tears to my eyes as I read. What a beautiful reminder Michael! It brought tears to my eyes as I read.

]]> By: Chris http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/the-words-of-institution/#comment-73764 Chris Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:35:09 +0000 http://addisonrd.com/WordPress/2007/04/11/the-words-of-institution/#comment-73764 I was raised pentecostal. My father was ordained in the Four Square Church and pastored one for most of my childhood. Because of this, I can definitely relate to the whole "low church tradition" that you spoke about. Nowadays, my family and I are very much involved in a church that is very liturgical, my dad was re-ordained in the Anglican church ( <a href="http://www.theamia.org/" rel="nofollow">AMIA</a> to be exact ) and what you said in this blog has definitely summed up my feelings exactly. There's a reason you have degrees and I'm only working on one right now. But it really is incredible to be immersed in the tradition of liturgy. I know a lot of people consider any form of a structured service to be a spiritual cop out, but for me at least, it has the respect and honor that a lot of times a "regular" church service might lack. Maybe it's just me, but I think you're spot on. I was raised pentecostal. My father was ordained in the Four Square Church and pastored one for most of my childhood. Because of this, I can definitely relate to the whole “low church tradition” that you spoke about. Nowadays, my family and I are very much involved in a church that is very liturgical, my dad was re-ordained in the Anglican church ( AMIA to be exact ) and what you said in this blog has definitely summed up my feelings exactly. There’s a reason you have degrees and I’m only working on one right now. But it really is incredible to be immersed in the tradition of liturgy. I know a lot of people consider any form of a structured service to be a spiritual cop out, but for me at least, it has the respect and honor that a lot of times a “regular” church service might lack. Maybe it’s just me, but I think you’re spot on.

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