Dang–that’s a good post, man.

I love Alec Baldwin…

Crap. That was me.^^^
Darn shared browsers…

I have not heard the audio and I am not sure I want to.
We have several friends in the midst of divorce/affairs out here right now too. You are right, the kids always lose.

wow, someone feels sorry for alex baldwin in this. i am floored. no way the real villian could be a “dad” who talks to his daughter like she’s dirt. i can’t remember from past posts, do you have children? if you do or plan to, do you think you’ll have a problem with these types of “foot insertions”?

I have two kids, three and a half and sixteen months.

So… you’ve never said anything that would haunt you were it posted on the internet for all time? I thought I was pretty clear with the “Boorish potty mouth” comment that I in no way condone what he did. I just think he’s getting screwed and judged by a public with a short memory for their own indiscretions.

Sure I have. But I can safely say that I have never approached what basically amounts to hate speech directed at any of my four children.

Well stated, Chad. I am not a fan of Baldwin’s, but I wholly agree with your blog. Yeah. I’d really hate to have my worst moment plastered all over the internet…

Rich,

I hear what you’re saying. For the sake of discussion, no, I can safely say that I have never said something like that to my kids, nor do I plan to.

I guess the thing that’s been frustrating me is that I haven’t heard anyone calling for the head of the person who made this thing public. The damage done to the daughter will have legs far beyond the incident because of the publicity. Whomever made this audio available did so with calculation, as where Baldwin was hot and pissed and in the moment.

Neither one’s right, but when faced with cold, calculated evil vs. angry, frustrated evil, I guess it’s just easier for me to empathize with the latter.

The kids still lose, which was sort of my point.

You’re being diplomatic, Chad.

Rich: seriously? I don’t think any fool would try to excuse what Baldwin said as okay or acceptable. But Chad has: 1) made a good point that every man falls short of the glory and that a person who has yet to be condemned is the person who provided this to the press; and 2) made a good point that MANY of us have done things as parents that fall short of our intended plans to be Mom/Dad Of The Year.

Congratulations to you if you’ve never made a parental error in how you talk with (or reprimand) your children. I’d say you’re one in 50 million. I can say that I make vocal mistakes to my kids on a monthly basis. I have yet to call them pigs (or any meat for that matter), but I say plenty that I wouldn’t want a liberal and cartoonish media using to villify me.

Also, phrases like “what basically amounts to hate speech…” are pretty extreme and are meant to create hype. You’re supposing that it “basically” (at the lowest common denominator of understanding) must be accepted as hate speech. Again, I’m not excusing what Baldwin said, I just don’t see anything constructive or gracious in painting him as The Worst Dad Alive.

Well written, as always, Chad. Having been raised in an anything-can-be-fixed-divorce-is-not-an-option household, it’s interesting, in this modern climate of ‘breaking up is easier on the kids than a loveless union’, to hear your side. I’m not criticizing either camp, by the way - I think there’s room for both schools of thought. One thing I admire about you (and something that I suspect you’re both proud of and completely frustrated by) is your talent for seeing and feeling deeply for both sides of any disagreement or issue. Someday George Bush and Rosie O’Donnell will debate on TV and you’ll be there, tears in your eyes. Just kidding.

Rich, not to continue squashing dissent (I’ve got Corey for that and he usually says what I’m thinking but is much, much better at it), but I think Chad was pretty clear that he wasn’t impressed with Mr. Baldwin’s words before he pulled out the compassion. You can have a go at him if you like, but I thought your tone was a bit more sarcastic than Chad’s thoughts deserved. But whatever. Chad can take it, I’m not a parent, and Alec’s words turned my stomach as well.

Chad: Maybe it’s a guy reaction (although my wife feels the same way) but I agree with you…with all the same caveats. I, too, have had my moments with our girls. But because we live in the same house, within minutes if not seconds, I can sit down with them on their bed and take my time explaining: 1)why I got angry, 2) why it’s not really OK to get angry and apologize, 3) explain their role in my geting upset, and 4) tell them that they mean more to me than anything else in the world and I will try harder next time. Hugs, kisses…”I love you dad”, etc.

Of course we didn’t get to hear that conversation if it occurred, and I believe it probably did…if he was allowed to talk with her on the phone. I can’t imagine only being able to talk to my girls over the phone on certain days of the week, or what I would act/sound like if I had to leave messages to get their attention. I don’t make excuses for myself when I get frustrated and angry with my girls…and I’m not making any for Alec Baldwin. I just don’t see it as black and white as the media seems to. It’s a sad situation all around that has no place in the headlines.

Morphea,

I thought about softening my language, as there are clear reasons for divorce in this world. Infidelity, violence, abuse, etc. Even orthodox Christianity has an excape clause.

Most divorces are, in my personal observation, not about protecting the kids, but about protecting the selfish needs of the parents above those of the kids.

I’ve had a funny observation lately, that my only truly disfunctional relationship in my life is with the church. We’re going through a trial separation. I often feel like a parent talking to congregants, telling them, “It’s not you.. it’s us. Mommy and Daddy just don’t love each other any more. The elder board has a new boyfriend. He’s younger, better looking, and… (sounds of bitter weeping)… Baptist!”

[quote comment="80405"]Someday George Bush and Rosie O’Donnell will debate on TV and you’ll be there, tears in your eyes. Just kidding.

[/quote]

Now that will truly be something to see. I might be crying, but only in mourning over the loss of our national intellect.

I agree- I feel bad for him too

That was me, Christy

Chad - I heard the audio (some of it bleeped out) on FOX News (don’t ask - it’s a work thing) and thought, “Geez, this is news? These people should come hang out poolside at our old condo. What those parents say to their kids would curl hair.”

Parents suck sometimes. Most of them have great intentions, and are ill-equipped to follow through on those intentions 100% of the time.

Ok, seriously–my wife and I need to get our login names straight…

but this:

I’ve had a funny observation lately, that my only truly disfunctional relationship in my life is with the church. We’re going through a trial separation. I often feel like a parent talking to congregants, telling them, “It’s not you.. it’s us. Mommy and Daddy just don’t love each other any more. The elder board has a new boyfriend. He’s younger, better looking, and… (sounds of bitter weeping)… Baptist!”

Can someone post about this? I can’t possibly tell you what a poor job we (Christians and the Church) do ACTUALLY representing Christ. I’ve had more frustrations with Christians and the Church than I’ve ever had outside of it. It’s really backwards…REALLY.

Dan -

I don’t really think I’m ready to talk about it just yet. I’ve only recently given myself permission to say some things out loud, much less plaster them on the internet.

I’ll say this, however: the current structure of laypeople, elders, and pastoral employees at our church (and I’d bet most churches) is hopelessly broken.

>>>the current structure of laypeople, elders, and pastoral employees at our church (and I’d bet most churches) is hopelessly broken.

AGREED!!!

Hm…we should really talk more.

Meh… broken (in retrospect) is too strong a word, and denies the goodness and sovereignty of God in these situations. I feel like the phrase “Clumsy, dysfunctional, and exhausting,” is what I meant.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say I feel sorry for Alec Baldwin (mainly because he’s always struck me as kind of pompous, and a good dose of humiliation might do him some good), but I think he’s taking too much heat for this. He should apologize TO HIS DAUGHTER. The rest of us have no business even knowing he did this. Whoever leaked this (hello, Ms Basinger) has made the humiliation of the poor daughter a public issue. That’s the real crime here.

And I think his choice of words proves out my contention that he’s a little pompous. “Thoughtless little pig”? Come on, if you’re gonna rag out your kids bring something more than that to the table. Wuss.

Both topics (Alec Baldwin and Church Structure) are volatile and intriging and deserving of more dialogue. Alex appears to be hearing the harsh criticism of his leaked voicemail and is moving in a more positive direction of contrition and growth. His recent comment was to aplogize and state he was writing a book regarding the diminished rights of father’s in our society (if you’ve never tried to be a divorced dad, you have no idea how hated and despised and discriminated that role can be).

On the human dysfunction found in churches, Dallas Willard preached at our church on Sunday and said, “I have people ask me why they should go to church and I tell them that Jesus wants us to love our enemies and and bless those that curse us and we’ll find some people there to help us work on that.” The whole church cracked up, we understood exactly what he meant.

I have recently come to understand the great and crushing burden we (church goers) place upon those in full time paid ministry. It seems that we have become the Pharisees who “tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” and “shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces.” We “do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” It sometimes feels like we are paying someone to do our ministry for us and then criticize their efforts.

I’m so glad that God is in charge and is coming to redeem us all.

Dallas was brilliant. BRILLIANT.

FYI - Bill is an elder at our church, but don’t hold that against him. He’s still aok with me.

Actually all the elders are good guys, even great men. I firmly believe that they are capable of leading our church, given the right circumstances. Well… they are leading our church, just not always in the manner that I think is most beneficial. It’s the system that’s frustrating me. This pastoral search process has lead to layer upon layer of needlessly imposed “Confidentiality Issues,” or as I call them, “Freakish Control Issues,” that have us all playing the game of who knows what, who’s supposed to know what, and who’s supposed to know what we know, and who’s gonna confirm or deny what we both already know to be true.

Crazy making. Koo-Koo.

I will state for the record that, out of 4 final candidates, I have personal and professional relationships with 2. Did anyone from the search committee contact me for a round of questions? No. Are they cutting off a critical resource by not asking ANY questions of the current staff? YES YES YES YES YES.

Koo Koo.

As for Alec,

He has had rage issues in the past, and although I still think he got a pretty unfair shake from the media, and I still think that the coldest person in this whole thing is the person who leaked it, perhaps he will benefit from this experience.

[quote comment="80699"]It sometimes feels like we are paying someone to do our ministry for us and then criticize their efforts.[/quote]

It sometimes feels like that from this side too.

There is so much gold to be mined in this thread, I don’t even know where to drop my pan. We should definitely have the Big Conversation about the church structure thing — all in good time, I guess.

Bill, I would add that another layer of weirdness to the church structure thing is what I like to call the “Minor Christian Celebrity Factor,” or MCCF. I led worship with my hubs, Ash, for several years after we got married (he’s paid to do such things, and he does them very well), and it just got to a point that I couldn’t do it anymore. There were many mitigating factors, but the one that sent me over the edge was the MCCF. It seemed like every week, I’d pour out my heart to God, doing my best to get out of the way and point people in His/er direction, and inevitably at the end of the service, five people would line up to tell me how awesome I was. Now, I have the performance gene and love applause as much as the next guy, but when you’re trying like the dickens NOT to be the center of attention, hero worship is reverse psychology: It makes you feel like crap, like you just haven’t done the job you got up at 5:30 AM to do. That kind of misplaced adoration is its own “crushing burden,” and anyone who is trying to walk in the humble Way of Jesus shouldn’t have to bear it.

Secrets and control and putting people on pedestals should all be banned in the Kingdom. Those are the ways of the world, and we are called to some Way higher, a Way that turns those ways on their heads, subverting their power to divide, distort and obfuscate.

[Sorry if I went there before the time was ripe for such discussion -- I guess these ideas have been weighing on my mind and spirit for awhile.]

I don’t think that, this side of heaven, anyone who is in front (or behind, or completely out of sight but is still somehow leading) of a group of people in a church on a regular basis will ever be completely free of the MCCF, as Aly put it so well. I suppose the one way to be free of it would be to train a capable and fairly bright group of people that there is no place for the MCCF within their midst and then lock the door…”First Church of the Us Four Shut the Door No More Brethren.” Aly, I think you were smart to step away as the MCCF was dragging you down but I hope that if the Spirit leads you to return to leading worship, per se, that you won’t let the stupid and unavoidable MCCF keep you from it. Not because any group of people “need” Aly to lead them but because the ways in which we are gifted to serve and reach others are also the means whereby God most readily reaches each of us. Clearly, God can “reach” anyone anywhere, but how much more open are our hearts and minds when we are engaged in those activities that enliven (is that a word?) us the most…those things that we are passionate about and which we are gifted and skilled at doing? I once heard a missionary say (in essence) “God doesn’t need my help in ’saving’ people anywhere, but I’m convinced that when I’m doing missionary work in another land, I’m the most receptive to God’s love for just me!” This particular missionary was what you would describe as self-sacrificing and humble and yet he went on to elaborate on how, over the years, he had come to the conclusion that his missionary work was really all about himself in that God had revealed so much to him in his efforts to lose himself in service to others. This had made him recognize God’s giant love for him, as an individual, which made him all the more passionate about communicating that love to others. I’m not reiterating what he said very well but his main point was ‘God loves ME!’ which is not what one typically hears missionaries saying when they’re up in front of a group talking about their overseas life and work.

I don’t think I’m saying this well at all. Aly, so sorry about the MCCF. It’s definitely a real problem. If it happens again, maybe you should come up with some sassy comebacks about how Jesus is the only real celebrity. Or, start intensely focusing on people’s necks whenever they start complimenting you inappropriately. After awhile, maybe you’d become known as “The woman who sings great but gets creepy when you talk to her.” Such a reputation would surely lessen the MCCF, don’t you think?

And anyone who is “trying to walk in the humble way of Jesus” is suuuuurely going to have to bear a very great deal indeed. Maybe that’s the key: just expecting all the crap.

It’s clear that you’re all rude, thoughtless pigs.

Sorry. I am suffering from Church-Alienation Syndrome. I’m writing a book. From rehab.

Ok, I’ll bite:

I have felt the MCCF thing, but that doesn’t frustrate me as much as what I will title, “You’re a Leader! Don’t Lead Like That” syndrome. YALDLLT syndrome overtakes elder boards (from both The Greatest and -unfortunately- The Boomer Generations) when dealing with people from my generation.

I experienced my first round of YALDLLT syndrome at VMC, where I expressed my concerns that the manner in which they were setting up the 11am contemporary service would doom it to failure, ie: lack of prep time after the 9:30 service, lack of identifiable difference between that service and the 11am, in both location and feel, and, most importantly, letting the leadership of the 11am service have autonomous leadership over the style and content.

Ash will have to elaborate on whether or not they ever figured it out, as I only survived 18 months.

In my current location, I was YALDLLT free until my boss resigned. Then it’s been all YALDLLT, all the time… Bill excluded.

“We don’t mourn like that! It’s been six months! Shut up!”

That’s funny. I know a lot of people who still aren’t over it and it’s been a year and a half.

“Don’t talk to people about the search process! Confidentiality is important in business!”

Yes. We work in church.

“We value your input and leadership!”

Then take some of it and implement. Not all. Some.

When I heard the Bald-wind blowing I thought of a balloon with a hole in it, leaking, leaking and thought he started and couldn’t stop. Not that he was helpless as much as he was full and it was going to stop only when the “AIR” was gone from the balloon.

Sad but true. Since she was not really the target of the tirade. Sometimes when a parent does not like their spouse or ex spouse or themselves for that matter, they send the dislike on down to the kid who reminds them most of the disliked one. I hope that made sense.

When you have few tools but are a person who is expected to have more because you can play a character who does it seems you will disappoint people often. Pastors, Baldwin’s,church people… I sure could use a huge pile of grace right now, some for me and some to share with others.

I know this is a double post but I kept thinking about the struggle people have with church leadership structures and the scrapes this has put on the soul of many people and I wanted to offer a couple thoughts. First as a pastor (church planter) and as a senior pastor for almost 12 years I would offer on behalf of leaders everywhere a sincere apology. I am sorry that you were hurt by the actions of leaders in the body of Christ. I am sorry that these leaders often left you to hurt rather than to humbly bring resolution.

The second is we are now in a shift. The shift is not about emergent, post modern, modern, traditional, contemporary et al. The shift is this; within the church we are seeing more and more churches unhealthiness exposed because for them leadership is a structure. In the bible leadership is a gift and the leaders God gave the church were supposed to be gifts too. But for hundreds of years the church has been led through a structure regardless of the gifts of those in the structure. This inevitably makes leadership about power not service. God designed the body to be led by leaders, taught by teachers, encouraged by encourager’s… But for God’s design to work people must truly know and fan to flame their gifts, they must love the church with passion and must walk closely to Christ.

I grew up in a church that the leadership structure was filled with men who did not possess the gift of leadership but has a position of leadership. It never grew, it left wounded people everywhere and it became anemic, feeding on itself. Structures are always threatened by gifted people and my home church was no exception. I think what frightens me most is we have some amazingly gifted leaders in the church who have not as of yet taken the time to forge their character. This has led to an angry rebellion rather than a passionate reformation. This has led to wholesale rejection instead of humble examination. This has led to design by what is wrong with moderns rather than what is right with the emergent conversation. It has led to a prideful response rather than a humble mission.

This phenomenon is only exacerbated by the “leadership is a structure” system of most churches. Not many churches are making room for new leaders, who bring new ideas, who give new insight to God, his word and the world around us. Not much room is being made for new leaders who can navigate the cultural changes happening all around the church and so the church is losing not only a generation of gifts God intended to make it strong, it is dividing, leaving many people wounded and wondering if the church is necessary at all. So again I am sorry and I beg you, please do not give up on the church.

Dude.

Forget Baldwin - Hasselhoff is my new pick for Father Of The Year!

Two things:

1) I laughed out loud at the MCCF thing but what leapt to mind is what C.S. Lewis said about Pride and Humility in Mere Christianity “Pleasure in being praised is not Pride. The child who is patted on the back for doing a lesson well, the woman whose beauty is praised by her lover, the saved soul to whom Christ says “Well done,” are pleased and ought to be. For here the pleasure lies not in what you are but in the fact that you have pleased someone you wanted (and rightly wanted) to please. The trouble begins when you pass from thinking, “I have pleased him; all is well,” to thinking, “What a fine person I must be to have done it.”

Be gracious and courteous and thank them for the compliment and then help them see God in your share experience; the beauty of your talent, the joy of worship, the voice of the church lifted in songs of praise to God, their kind heart in giving a compliment. (Ephesians 4:29)

2) The church structure thing. We must find a way to lighten the load we have placed on “ministry professionals”, to stand shoulder to shoulder with them, and in the power of Christ, grow together and joyfully do the work of God.

[quote comment="81116"]I grew up in a church that the leadership structure was filled with men who did not possess the gift of leadership but has a position of leadership. It never grew, it left wounded people everywhere and it became anemic, feeding on itself. Structures are always threatened by gifted people and my home church was no exception. I think what frightens me most is we have some amazingly gifted leaders in the church who have not as of yet taken the time to forge their character. This has led to an angry rebellion rather than a passionate reformation. This has led to wholesale rejection instead of humble examination. This has led to design by what is wrong with moderns rather than what is right with the emergent conversation. It has led to a prideful response rather than a humble mission.

This phenomenon is only exacerbated by the “leadership is a structure” system of most churches. Not many churches are making room for new leaders, who bring new ideas, who give new insight to God, his word and the world around us. Not much room is being made for new leaders who can navigate the cultural changes happening all around the church and so the church is losing not only a generation of gifts God intended to make it strong, it is dividing, leaving many people wounded and wondering if the church is necessary at all.

So again I am sorry and I beg you, please do not give up on the church.[/quote]

This is amazing.

Literally yesterday, I said that I think both the elders and pastors are trapped in a system that pits them against each other without reason or rhyme. The system is the enemy, not these men.

Leoskeo- great articulation. Thank you.

“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you’ve got to make it stop! And you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!” (Mario Savio, Dec. 2, 1964)