Addison Road

8 Responses to “pelagius”

1. 1 aly hawkins
   23 July 2006 at 8:36 pm

   Didn’t Augustine once call Pelagius a “saintly man”? Anyway, perhaps Alan is right in his concerns, since I totally dig on Pelagius. Augustine’s ideas about “no good works can come without God’s grace” kinda misses the mark. IMHO.

2. 2 corey
   24 July 2006 at 8:37 am

   Aly (or anyone), if you don’t mind sharing… what did Augustine mean by that (”no good works…”) and what do you see as the problem with it?

3. 3 aly hawkins
   24 July 2006 at 9:11 am

   Augustine meant that human will is incapable of choosing good over evil without divine aid. I don’t agree with this, though I’m not a full-blown Pelagian either, since I do believe all humanity is tainted by sin and in need of a Savior. I think Augustine and Pelagius wrote from two extremes and that the truth is somewhere between or above them: that we all still retain an imprint of the image of God, with a creative will desiring to do good, AND that we are all corrupted and can’t manage to choose good all the time. I think I’m a Pelagustinian.

4. 4 corey
   24 July 2006 at 10:17 am

   First of all, I responded to your email but my incoming email server has been crazy for a week or so. If you responded to my response this morning, I haven’t gotten it yet. If you need to communicate sooner, we can awkawardly do it here - or you can email me by writing to my first and last name (no periods) at mac dot com.

   Next- this feels a bit like some of the Lutheran doctrine (as my mind understands it) that I was taught back as a young, impressionable pre-jaded Christian. Paul’s statement that “no man seeks God” - that one is incapable of doing good without the Holy Spirit moving / prodding him or her to do so resonates here. At the heart of me, there is still the belief in a Great Big God, bigger and more powerful than my own decisiions and free will (thank God). And perhaps my reluctance to agree that man is capable of doing good by his own merit or choice comes from a fear of the slippery slope. If I agree that man is capable of doing good on his own, by his own will, then I feel like it is a stone’s throw from allowing that man is capable of somehow contributing to his own salvation. Or somehow “preparing” himself to be saved?

   I dunno. I think I am building a Personal Belief Castle out of little bricks of out-of-context scripture. But at the heart, I still believe that all good comes from above, even my ability to do good (which feels like it’s been in short supply for a few years).

   While, as an artist, I’m all about being self-absorbed, vain, self-serving, conceited, puffed-up, idealistic, and passive agressive in protecting my own desires, as a believer I believe in a God who operates outside of the storm of Corey and is able to do good work in me, IN SPITE of the p.o.s. I see in the mirror. This seems to fall in step with Augustne’s thought, no?

5. 5 aly hawkins
   24 July 2006 at 11:04 am

   Yes, Augustinian thought is very big with the Lutherans, so it’s not surprising this sounds familiar.

   I guess I just don’t see a connection between believing people can do good and believing they can “save” themselves. Paul is pretty clear that it’s by grace that we’re saved, but does that automatically mean that no one can do good outside of that grace? I don’t think so.

   I also don’t think there is a contradiction in believing that all good “comes from above” and also believing that all people are capable of doing good. Couldn’t we say that the desire to do good that is inherent in all of us originates from God? We might even go as far to say that this inherent desire is a good and perfect gift that indeed prepares us to accept God’s grace for our salvation. (For more on this idea, I highly recommend N.T. Wright’s newest book Simply Christian.

   I just emailed you back. Let me know if you don’t receive it.

   Good converstion, Corey!

6. 6 corey
   24 July 2006 at 11:56 am

   I haven’t received the email in either account. If it’s not too pressing, it should show up eventually.

   Well, I think it’s a pretty big jump between the idea that man can do good and the idea that man can save himself. Few christians believe that they can save themselves. My thought is that any identification with an “inner goodness” somehow proposes the idea that we ripen the soil for God’s grace to take root or that we somehow prepare the way for the Lord to work in us. I have this mental picture of us trying to speed up so that God doesn’t have to slow down to pass us the baton of everlasting life - and the whole image of us running that race (although the race metaphor is used in the NT) is bordering on heresy to me.

   I feel like there is too much NT scripture that points to a holistic brokenness of man so it’s hard for me to separate myself into good and bad parts.

   Aly: “Couldn’t we say that the desire to do good that is inherent in all of us originates from God? We might even go as far to say that this inherent desire is a good and perfect gift that indeed prepares us to accept God’s grace for our salvation.”

   Well, I think we could. And if I hold it up to the right light, it sounds vaguely familiar to what Augustine (and I guess, later Luther) implied by saying that the Holy Spirit was/is working in us. Mabe I’m trying to personify a metaphysical act, but couldn’t the method of delivery of that inherent good and perfect gift be the prodding of the Holy Spirit? It sounds to me like you might be more Lutheran or Augustinian than we thought. :) I’ll call the Missouri Synod and warn them of your conversion. They’ll move the alert to Orange and the Defense Condition to 4. :)

   My shoot-from-the-hip Theopsychology tells me that you may be struggling to reconcile the relationship between the fact that we are sinful through and through and the fact that the result of that fact is powerlessness, helplessness and depravity - none of which make good outfits for the empowered, idealistic, 30-something, hipster, philosopher.

   ***I have to admit, though, that for all my rambling on this Great Big God, my views of man’s goodness (or proposed lack-of) is colored by my own experiences (read: baggage) and need for authentic redemption. If I somehow thought that I was capable of good and still had to deal with the choices that I and others have made, it would only make the facets of my jadedness more abundant.

7. 7 aly hawkins
   24 July 2006 at 1:12 pm

   Well, I’m definitely 30-something and idealistic, but I’m not so sure about empowered and quite sure I don’t qualify as either a hipster or a philosopher. I’m too dorky for the former and too intellectually lazy for the latter.

   You can call off the Missouri Synod emergency…I just can’t buy into Total Depravity, so they’re safe from my rabble-rousing. I actually don’t struggle with the idea that we are sinful — dude, I know how much I suck — but I can’t go in for “through and through.” I have far too many non-believer friends who love well and do good because it’s good, and I just can’t bring myself to believe that the good they do is “faulty in its premise and false in its motive,” as the doctrine of T.D. would have it. Whether their goodness is the prompting of the Holy Spirit or the image of God active in their lives or a combination of both, I don’t know. (I think these ideas may come under the umbrella of “prevenient grace,” but I’m a little rusty on my John Wesley.) I’m most inclined toward the Eastern Orthodox understanding of original sin: that all humans share in the consequences of sin and that we are flawed as a result, but not completely corrupt. Through the incarnation of Jesus, communion with God can be re-established and we can begin the process of de-flawing to become like Christ. (This differs markedly from Augustine and is one of the reasons the E.O.C. and the Roman Catholic Church have not yet been able to reconcile. That and a little sticking-point called The Immaculate Conception of Mary.)

   It is NOT my intention to increase your jadedness, that’s for sure. I think we can both agree that people (us) suck and are in dire need of divine intervention. Thankfully, the Divine has in fact intervened and continues to intervene, even when we’re at our worst. I’m incredibly grateful that Jesus has such bad taste in friends, or I’d be right out.

8. 8 corey
   24 July 2006 at 1:44 pm

   I think I subscribe to C.S. Lewis’ take on good works - that nothing we do is without some sort of selfish gain, no matter how trivial the deed or the gain. I, too, know some fantastic non-Christians, (I’m sorry to say that many of my favorite people in my life are favorites because they have yet to be tainted by AmeriChurch) but still consider them unuaware of the reason for their total depravity, but no less totally depraved. And the ones who suggest halos and wings but have no faith to support them are just my message from God that He loved/loves us while we’re still sinners and that His spirit works in us with or without our permission.

   And this conversation is safe because if there’s one thing I know FOR SURE about my faith, it’s that it’s a meat and potatoes version. Christ died for my sins, for that I have salvation. The extent of man’s sinfulness, age and method of baptism, et al, are just hills of religious practice that I’m unwilling to die on.

   Thanks for the insight, Aly. It’s always appreciated.