I lean Left. (If that’s not obvious after this long, I apologize for my subtlety.) For a long time, I have been skeptical about U.S. policy toward the State of Israel: not that we support them (for they do have a right to exist), but that we apparently believe that supporting them means doing so even when they’re wrong.
Since I lean Left, I’m generally not a fan of Pat Buchanan. But today, we are of one mind.
But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.
But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?
! hour and 30 mins and not one reply? I thought this for sure would get the boards going…
First off, I don’t get Buchanan. Does anyone?
How is Israel wrong here? The facts are (as far as I can figure them out) is that for the last 18 months (read year and a half) Hezbollah has been firing an average of 90 rockets A MONTH into Israel. Some hit desert, some hit goats but occasionally some hit a small settlement and people get hurt. Now, if Mexico or Canada was indiscriminately firing rockets into San Diego or Montana would you say that we should just put up with it? Or perhaps we should fire an equal amount of rockets back because that would be fair. No, the solution is that we would eliminate the threat using the might of our military. This whole idea that war must be fought fairly is ridiculous.
After decades of occupation Israel pulled out of Lebanon with one condition; that the government of Lebanon and the U.N. disarm Hezbollah. Everyone agreed. Guess what? They weren’t’ disarmed. The government of Lebanon promised to do that. The U.N. promised to do that. And now Israel is the bad guy for finally doing what was to be done 6 years ago.
Same goes with Gaza except this time Israel didn’t even ask for disarmament. They just left. Guess what happens, Hamas wins leadership and they attack unprovoked into Israel.
So again I ask; how is Israel wrong?
Furthermore, Pat goes on to say “The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush’s blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade.” Huh? This same government has allowed one of the world’s most heinous terrorist groups to all but have their own little country in southern Lebanon. Also, Hezbollah occupies 18% of the seats in their government. They openly threaten to attack U.S. interests world wide. How is that “pro-American?” Up until 9/11, Hezbollah was responsible for killing more Americans since WW2 than any other group or country. Remember when we were kids and all the flags flew at half staff? It was because these same a-holes blew up a barracks full of Marines who were there to try and keep Lebanese people alive. Same thing happened to our embassy. And who was the only passenger killed in the hijack of Flight 847? An Amercian. How soon we forget.
Again he says “When al-Qaeda captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them, the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?” Two things Pat. At the time of those events the government of Iraq was not openly harboring terrorists. They were actively fighting them. Second, it was because we had already wrecked their infrastructure when we invaded the damn country to begin with. We weren’t prepping for invasion when those soldiers were killed and if we were, we probably would have done everything we had to in order to win.
Buchanan’s assertion that Israel is “imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them.” is absolutely retarded. They are bombing missile sites. They are bombing roads and bridges so that Syria cannot re-arm Hezbollah via Iran. They are bombing infrastructure so that Hezbollah can’t fight back effectively. If they wanted simply to “impose deliberate suffering” they would drop a Nuke in Beirut. Sure these tactics cause suffering in civilians and many will be killed. But is that Israel’s fault or is it’s Hezbollah for provoking or Lebanon’s for not stopping Hezbollah? Remember, we brought the hurt to the Taliban because they were sheltering and refusing to hand over Al-Qaeda.
The thing that gets me about Pat’s rant is that he offers no alternative. He says that Israel has the right to defend herself and to take out Hezbollah but not in a way that would assure victory. Israel believes she is at war and is acting like it. Yes, it sucks. I wish that it weren’t the case.
Yeah… I’m kinda with Jeremy on this one… for the most part. I do think Isreal could be a little more shrewd in the way they dismantle Hezbollah. They are not exactly making it easy to come to their defense, with their shock and awe tactics.
My question is, given the (as I understand it) accurate picture Jeremy painted of the pre-war (pre-action… pre-whatever) situation with Isreal, Palestine, and Lebanon, what SHOULD Isreal have done?
I state again… ahem… that it is indeed difficult for nations to behave in a Christ-like manner.
Although I must confess that it does my heart good to see Aly aligning herself with a Right wing polititian.
I think she might make a financial contribution to Ralph Reed’s Lt. Gov. run in Georgia at this rate. :)
Aly,
I’m a first time visitor to your site. I think you and I are probably in the same place politically as well as morally. I invite you to see my post for today at The Shilohman.
Where are the Christians? Pat and you ask. Good question. It seems we haven’t built a superstructure that would allow us to go into Lebanon and do the kind of work the King would want done in this situation. So we are left to say things like I said, “Wish I could do something to help.” It becomes very frustrating. I’m growing weary of speaking out against things and not being able to do anything of any real value. Can we dare hope that someone cares enough to love the hurt, homeless, and hungry?
Nations will be nations. Dictators will be dictators. Powermongers will be powermongers. Our concern must be the work of the King.
A U.N. official said yesterday: “The Middle East is littered with the results of people believing there are military solutions to political problems.”
I’m inclined to agree, and I think Iraq is a prime example. Politics are about ideas, and you can’t fight ideas with guns and bombs…well, not successfully, anyway. That’s why declaring a military “War on Terror” (oh, God…I’m am SO getting this blog on the FBI’s watch list) is the most ridiculous thing ever: you can declare a military war on terrorists that you may win by blowing them all to hell, but you can’t declare a military war on an idea and have any hope of an end. Ideas don’t die until better ideas come along to kill them.
Jeremy, I unfortunately don’t have time to answer each and every point (and you have great ones, even if we don’t see all the facts in the same way), but here is my suggestion for the alternative good ol’ Pat didn’t give: fight bad ideas with better ideas. Gaza is a great place to start. Instead of keeping Palestinians caged like animals behind a wall from which there is no escape (Israel should have learned a thing or two about how poorly this works from the Cold War), realize that long-term safety is won by taking risks. Giving people who have an illegitimate reason for hating you (you’re Jews) a legitimate reason (you’re killing our people and economy) is just bad policy. You’re only confirming and shoring up the hatred. (This is also the case in Lebanon, where many average citizens were either pro-Israel or Isreal-ambivalent, but now that their children and homes and roads and hospitals are blowed up, they are downright pissed.)
This goes for US policy as well, in case any spooks are listening. (Tap, tap.) We learned from our mistakes after WWI and didn’t make the same ones after WWII: punishing people who just happened to be in close proximity to the bad guys doesn’t work to secure long-term peace. It just builds Bad Guy factories to supply the next war.
And Chad: I don’t think you realize how much it cost me to actually admit I agree with Pat Buchanan. I have nothing left to give to Ralph Reed.
That’s Lt. Gov. Reed to you.
Be really, really specific, Aly. What, exactly, should Israel have done in response to the provocations and attacks that Jeremy outlined?
Don’t say what they shouldn’t do. Say what they should do. Very specifically.
BTW… if you think Pat Buchanan is “on the right”, you haven’t been paying attention for 12 years or so. He is a populist, not a conservative. I occasionally agree with him… because sometimes conservative ideas happen to have appeal in a populist way. He is for labor protectionisim, isolationism short of a direct attack on US soil (which HAPPENED), etc. These are not ideas from the right.
One comment: military force absolutely does defeat bad ideas (and good ones, but much less often). The NAZIs and the emperor worshipers did not go away because we persuaded them with the force of our goodness. We persuaded them with the goodness of our force.
Phil - I’m just not in this headspace right now. But I still appreciate our conversations.
I just made it back to a computer after a few days off… and won’t be near another one for a few days… by choice.
But….
Headspace, as I understand the term, is the space between the bolt and the chamber in a firearm the uses rimmed ammunition.
I take it, therefore, that you are refraining from threatening me with firearms… with which I wholeheartedly concur.
Yeah, I think plenty of other people have got the gun thing covered. You’re safe.
Holy cow… you make it sound like I’m being hunted by a herd of gunnies…
Probably all irate former students…
Pat Buchanan was on Colbert this last week. That was some spicy comedy right there. Colbert may be the quickest mind on TV right now. Either that, or he has 16,563 research interns all writing out the best possible response to every improbable off-handed comment that every guest might make.