quote:

“For corporate worship, most churches actually depend on secondary resources - the skill, natural ability, and homiletic training of the pastor. In the emerging Church, a new kind of preacher is coming into his own for whom there is presently no adequate training.”

Larson, Osborne, The Emerging Church (1970), p56

Again, I’m really sorry.

I think the elders would have wanted my friend to return in person for… something… some sort of apology. It came in a letter that was read in the service… two months too late if you ask me.

I have said a zillion times (not here) that I actually kind of understand his motivations. He’s admitted his sin. He’s paid the price.. (job, friends, reputation…) so why should he be subjected to a public flogging? His wife is ready to leave town yesterday, even as she makes strides to forgive him. I can’t say with any certainty that I wouldn’t do the same thing.

I guess the problem is that I am perhaps the most direct piece of collateral damage in this little escapade, outside of his immediate family. So… where’s my peace of mind? When do I get to duck town?

I got truckloads of grace, but it’s just hard to give it to someone who’s not there.

Cerise

“OK son, tell the boys to keep their eyes open and noses plugged.”

“INCOMIIIIIIIIING!!!!!”

Splat.

And Chad, I understand your situation, and I’m really really sorry. I think it’s a function of two things: first of all, some pastors get deified in such a way that when they fall from grace it’s like falling from heaven itself and there’s hardly a way to deal with the carnage of what’s left of that impact. Secondly, I believe that all 20 of these comments point to the fact that we’re trying to somehow make a stormworthy building out of incongruent measurements. We’re working with a beautiful machine that God built (the Church)- one that is luxurious, swift, effectve, utilitarian, and sleek all at the same time- but we have the mind, movements, and mechanical skills of monkeys. What we do best is to throw poop at each other. It’s hard to see the light at the end of this tunnel because we’re humans and, until we cease to be, we’re going to continue falling from grace in whatever form that takes, be it putting too much pressure on our pastor to be the Jesus Stand-In, or dealing with our own filth in the shadows.

As I was reading through the previous 19 comments, I just started to bubble over with things that I wanted to say in reponse to Mike’s original post and then the ensuing dialogue about Chad’s experience. Unfortunately, it’s all hitting my keyboard at once and I feel like I’m juggling more than really adding something profound.

Even though my entire life–literally–has been in some way financially subsidized by pastoral income, I am a stong proponent of non-paid leadership in church communities, not because I feel there is a biblical mandate either way (as Doug pointed out, there isn’t), but because I think we’ve swung way too far past the point of reason on one extreme and it’s time for some course correction. There is still benefit in healthy communities of paid pastoral staff (CCC is one example), but I see the trend tending toward setting up unrealistic and unhealthy expectations, many of which have been mentioned here. As an added caveat, I think those expectations sometimes extend to the pastor’s family, and I think that is especially unhealthy. Ideally, leaders’ families would whole-heartedly embrace being a part of the church community…but that’s an ideal that should be for ALL families, and the added pressure of paying one over the other can be a detriment. I don’t even attend the church at which Ash is employed, largely because of these expectations.

I’m with Cerise on this one, at least until we can swing the pendulum back in a more balanced arc. Co-journeyers can, I think, do more toward “being” the church over “doing” or “presenting” church, at least on the local level.

I appreciate your words. Apparantly this is groupthink / group therapy. Sorry. I haven’t found a place where I can dump these frustrations in the real world. E has heard them one too many times… and it’s just such a bummer. Everyone’s just… well… moving on.

Except for me… I’m still pretty bent out of shape… so I have to choose keeping the peace (and the paycheck) or Making a Federal Case Out of it. I think I have to choose the former, both for my own mental health, and my relationships at church.

The lasting lesson that I am taking away from all this is that, in a church environement, up is down and black is white. My marriage has taught me that transparancy and confession leads to wholeness and healing. In the church, as best I can see, confession and transparancy leads to a quickie divorce, and the kids are left to pick up the pieces. I think it’s an unfortunate lesson, and part of me rejects it. But personal experience is personal experience, and it will not be reasoned or argued away.

Maybe its unrealistic to expect in a congregation of hundreds you can create a climate of grace. Maybe our churches are just too big. I know I sense more grace in a small group that knows me well and loves me anyway than in a large group that experiences me from afar.

The twelve step people know the value of confession but also know its limits and dangers. Step 5 says we admit to God, self and another the exact nature of our wrongs. I don’t think it means confess to everyone the exact nature of your wrongs. Step 9 says make amends to those we hurt except when to do so would inflict further hurt on them or others.

Unfortunately, often still shoot our wounded.

Cerise

Please understand that with my own personal experiences of the past three months, my perspective on this issue is going to be about as clear as a puddle of mud. I have a good church. A really good church. I just happened to have witnessed them not sure how to deal with a pastor who made a huge mistake. Everyone is saying the right things… saying nice things… but no one really knows how to deal. The end result has been a complete severing of relationship, which is just the devil kicking us to the curb and reminding us that he’s got free reign over THIS world, if you ask me.

Now… the pastor in question is A.) solely responsible for the sin that caused his resignation, and B.) the single worst offender in the broken communication / relationship problem. Everyone at the church thinks I am an advocate for him because we had a friendship, but that’s just not true. If anything, I am more peeved at him then anyone, as I have had to shoulder a huge burden the past three months, keeping the quality of the services up through a rotating group of preachers and teachers. No one has more reason that I do to have a personal vendetta against this man, as he left me high and frickin dry. My wife sat out in the service this past week and commented that she hoped the elders and leaders realized that I had become the undisputed leader of sunday morning services. I certainly didn’t ask for such a “privilege.”

I am peeved at them all for simply not forcing everyone to deal with one another, and settling for severed relationship instead. I don’t do severed relationships. I just don’t. I’m peeved at my elders for not taking me seriously when I asked where the words “permanant” and “disqualification” sat next to each other in the Bible. What we have here is a human construct that doesn’t really resemble anything in scripture, IMO. We have expectations about how clergy are to behave (often unreasonable) and then we have no grid to deal with them when they don’t. and relationship is trashed.

What a load of bullcrap.

I don’t think congregations alone can be blamed for the way they put the pastor on a pedastal or expect him or her to do all the ministry. I think too many pastors need to be needed and so they create and feed the situation.

I think I have gone far afield from the original question about professional clergy.
I am grateful that for the last 24 years the Church has “freed me from worldly avocation” by providing a salary and some benefits for my family. The attraction of a tent-making model of ministry might be attractive simply because I have never done it. I would like to hear from someone who has.

You’re right, their not totally leaving the pastor to fend for himself, but I don’t know that it’s an entirely translatable paradigm. At least here in the states, property has an equity value that far outweighs the funtional value. In the areas where these men are serving, a house has great functional value, but can’t really be sold or converted into other resources. There’s not really a hot re-financing boom in Tanzanian real estate.

“Pastor Michael Lee, Pastor of Worship Ministries Pastor” is what it should read.

I totally agree with you in that pastors, especially pastors of long running, successful ministries, do like their pastoral perks, don’t they? Who doesn’t like it when people respect you and listen to your opinions and dote on your every gilded word?

Everyone should know that I just witnessed a spectacular pastoral fall from grace, so my perspective on this is gonna be pretty darn calloused. Oh heck… here it is: I think the pastor on a pedestal model is a big, fat, steaming load of bullcrap. The members of a congregation get to project themselves onto their pastor. He (or she, but who am I kidding) is a local celebrity, providing the congregant with an identity boost. We may worship Jessica Alba or Johnny Depp as our idols of physical beauty, but we worship our pastor as our idols of spirituality.

The pastor gives a good talk, the congregation grows, we’re all winners!

In fact, the only thing we like more than seeing our favorite celebrities ascend… is watching them crash and burn.

This is why I made them remove the word “Pastor” next to my name on the bulliten. Who needs the pressure?

In the west buying someone a house, and giving them a job would be a major investment…or what would be the translatable experience?

So I don’t think the scriptures lay down one model for ministry.

One of the practical realities that is facing some north american churches is the spiraling costs of having a full-time ordained installed pastor. It is getting so that a congregation under 100 or so is unable to support the salary, medical insurance, and housing needs of its pastor. Add to this the experience of the new church plant that has no property or facility with little hope of purchasing in today’s real estate market and you have the necessity to look at options.

I wonder if the Tanzania model is tranferable. The church provides a parsonage (church owned house) and a part-time “secular” job- like maybe it has a business such as a used furniture store or some other retail business that not only provides a needed service to the community but a stream of income for the pastor. The pastor works part time running or working in the business and part-time in teaching and leading the church. The shepherding and care is done primarily thru life groups or volunteer staff so gifted.

This might work better in situations where the pastor is seen more as minister of word, sacrament and prayer than as administrator or shepherd/care chaplain.

Are any of you aware of a model like this in an urban area in North America?

But perhaps not. If the church and it’s leaders were not committed to these things, then having a tent-making minister probably wouldn’t change anything. The minister would just become burnt out quicker and the church would shift into a ‘maintanence mode’ where programs might continue but innovation and any real pastoring would stop.

I’m interested in Chad’s comments about blurring the line between clergy and congregation. I definately think it’s a good idea (my husband is a pastor) - but I wonder if to some extent ministers place themselves (or let themselves be placed) on lofty perches - by how they dress, where they stand and sit in church, how they introduce themselves, how they preach, and how open they are about their own struggles. I think it can be easier to hide behind a clerical collar or title than to do the hard work of living alongside people and loving them and teaching them the gospel day by day.

I’m gonna go out on a limb, here…your input wouldn’t be coming from the perspective of a grown-up pastor’s child, would it? Hmmm?

Cerise

I know for a fact that it would benefit pastor’s children…

Is that what you’re getting at? Doug, what say you?

Cerise